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Post by lynette on Oct 13, 2016 17:28:18 GMT
play a song for me. This is the first Nobel lit winner I can quote without looking up on Wikipedia.
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Post by rumbledoll on Oct 13, 2016 19:14:19 GMT
I thought it was a bold and fantastic choice! I'm a huge fan. This is long overdue. Dylan's poetry is beyond any boundaries of wise and beautiful. He inspired too many to count.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2016 8:32:56 GMT
The times they really are a-changing!
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Post by primitivewallflower on Oct 14, 2016 12:06:08 GMT
Superb choice, and the Committee deserves a lot of credit as they must have known it would be controversial.
Also, I've largely enjoyed the ensuing debate (other than the comments of a few smug writers and apotheostic fans) because, at its core, it's a debate about what art is and the vaporous categories we use to organize it.
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Post by mallardo on Oct 14, 2016 12:29:22 GMT
Disagree. A farcical choice. Lyrics are not literature (IMO) and if you think they are where's Sondheim's award?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2016 13:19:04 GMT
Why should the Nobel Prize winners be people we've heard of though? Isn't it nice to have attention brought to people who might not get it elsewhere? Music already gets so much more cultural space than literature, I just don't think this was necessary. By all means, he deserves the awards that he has won over the years for music and/or lyrics but literature? Not in my book (literally!)
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Post by primitivewallflower on Oct 14, 2016 13:47:41 GMT
It's wonderful that the Lit Prize has gone to more obscure writers recently, boosting their careers and canonizing their work. I expect that the Prize will return to doing just that in the years to come. But I see it as first and foremost about excellence, not elevating the underappreciated.
Moreover, the Committee has been awarding it to playwrights for decades now, so it's not like they're only just now straying from strict written word consumption. Not to mention that it's gone to plenty of poets, and poetry's origins are inextricably linked to music and the sung word. Poetry is, simply put, verse.
What brought me around to the idea of Dylan as a poet was Christopher Ricks *Dylan's Visions of Sin*. Ricks is a careful scholar of poetry and the English language and he shows that Dylan's work has the textual and emotional range of the great Anglophone poets. That music is threaded through Dylan's work doesn't make it less poetic (if anything, more so) and it doesn't make it any less literary, any more so than the fact that, say, most of George Bernard Shaw's works were intended to be performed on stage.
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Post by freckles on Oct 14, 2016 14:46:01 GMT
It seems an odd choice to me. If "literature" now includes all song lyrics, that's a vast, vast field to consider. On top of your more conventional writings. It sounds to me like a lazy choice, "Oh, I don't know, let's just give it to a songwriter for a change, shall we?" He's penned some very dodgy lines as well as the odd great one.
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Post by rumbledoll on Oct 14, 2016 14:53:26 GMT
Disagree. A farcical choice. Lyrics are not literature (IMO) and if you think they are where's Sondheim's award? Sorry but Sondheim's lyrics is pathetic compared to Dylan's. I found it weird the awards went specifically for lyrics though - Dylan writes brilliant prose/books too.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 14, 2016 20:27:49 GMT
Disagree. A farcical choice. Lyrics are not literature (IMO) and if you think they are where's Sondheim's award? Has Sondheim written a world class song though? Dylan is well into double figures
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Post by mallardo on Oct 15, 2016 7:10:11 GMT
Disagree. A farcical choice. Lyrics are not literature (IMO) and if you think they are where's Sondheim's award? Has Sondheim written a world class song though? Dylan is well into double figures
By world class it seems you mean world famous. Sondheim has written many world class songs but famous is another story. By your criterion Paul Simon, Elton John, The Beatles, etc. would all be rated above Sondheim and eligible for literary awards.
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Post by Michael on Oct 15, 2016 9:28:57 GMT
Sondheim has written many world class songs According to what definition? I say one is worse than another, and the only award Sondheim deserves is the Golden Raspberry (or a music equivalent).
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Post by joem on Oct 15, 2016 10:58:53 GMT
I have nothing against Dylan who is a fantastic songwriter but, as has been said, song lyrics - including his - are rarely poetry or literature.
If they had given it to Leonard Cohen I would also have been surprised but would have understood it better since he was a poet before being a pop artist and has produced a good number of volumes of critically acclaimed poetry.
The Nobel has over the years made a number of strange awards, presumably to publicise itself. I tend to think this is one of them.
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Post by rumbledoll on Oct 15, 2016 18:57:15 GMT
I have nothing against Dylan who is a fantastic songwriter but, as has been said, song lyrics - including his - are rarely poetry or literature.
If Desolation Row, Ballad In Plain D, Sad-Eyed Lady of The Lowlands, Love Minus Zero/No Limit (etc. etc.) are not the examples of true and pure poetry I honestly don't know what is. I'm wondering does Sondheim has anything even remotely as beautifully rich in language and thought?
Funny thing is I used to read Dylan's songs as poems before I started to listen. My graduation project in Uni (130 pages of research on culturally significant wording) was based on his book and I'm proud to say so. I can't see why he's not eligible.
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Post by joem on Oct 15, 2016 21:00:29 GMT
There may well be Dylan songs which work as poetry, excuse my ignorance - and I'm certainly not about to comment on Sondheim about whom I know even less. But it seems to me he operates as a songwriter, in the main, not a poet and there are differences in what consitutes one or the other.
I think the issue here is do song lyrics count as literature or not? The consensus is probably "no", although the Nobel committee may think it is "yes". What many are suggesting is that the committee may have made the wrong decision for this award because what they are giving it (song lyrics which they may think are poetry) for is not what they are supposed to be awarding it for (literature).
That is the conundrum.
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Post by rumbledoll on Oct 15, 2016 21:46:23 GMT
joem, I understand your point. It's the quesion of percepting the term. imo 90% of song lyrics no matter how successful is laughable in terms of "literature". It's just (hopefully) rhymed words which serve the melody and the message artist is taking out into the world. Dylan's lyrics works perfectly fine as poems - apart from being unmatched in eloquency it has it's own inner rhythm which does not require any music attached to it.
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Post by lynette on Oct 15, 2016 23:12:00 GMT
Mallardo, Elton doesn't write the lyrics I don't think. Someone called Bernie does.
Poetry isn't just verse.
I'm not that happy in the choice. Nothing against Dylan, love his songs, most of them but can't see him up there with other Nobels.
No,I'm not Parsley.
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Post by mallardo on Oct 16, 2016 6:20:15 GMT
Mallardo, Elton doesn't write the lyrics I don't think. Someone called Bernie does. .
Of course you're right. Mea culpa. My point stands.
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