133 posts
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Post by whygodwhytoday on Nov 10, 2016 21:25:28 GMT
I truly believe - don't laugh - that the world is becoming more caring and understanding, though we appear to be in a very deep trough at the moment. We all have the best intentions and want the best for the world we live in. I don't see that. I see people wanting the best for the world they live in, but the world everyone else lives in can go to hell. Recently I employed a tradesman to do some work on my house. He's not British; I don't know where he's from and in the current atmosphere it might be rude to ask. In the minds of the Trumps and the Farages of this world I should have employed someone local (he is actually local — he lives a few minutes from me — but that's not what they mean), not some foreigner. That's wrong. I shouldn't have considered not employing him because he's not British, any more than I would if he'd been black or a woman. You either treat people as equal or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose which equality you're prepared to tolerate. What I see in the world these days is an increasing selfishness: a willingness to treat others appallingly so long as I'm OK. You can't say that anyone has the best of intentions when both here and in the United States people are advocating throwing other people out of their homes and out of their jobs because of some ridiculous perception that creating an underclass is the way to make a nation great. It feels to me like we're living in the 1930s, and I think things are going to have to get a whole lot worse before people finally look in the mirror and see what they've become. I don't see that. I see young people without the bigotry of their grandparents generation utterly blind to the importance of democracy. Retweeting isn't the same as going out and voting. The turn out for the younger demographic with the brexit vote was pale in comparison to that of other demographics. Having said that, I have noticed a fringe of young people in politics who's aim is to provoke and stir, though this is seldom down to bigotry, rather wanting attention. An amount of selfishness is needed to survive in a capitalist country, to an extent. It would be great if human nature was one of empathy and collective thinking, but history tells us we've never - in our most primitive form - been like that. The healthiest societies have always had their murderers, homeless, outcasts, etc... I agree with you that times SEEM hard, but to compare it to the 1930's is ridiculous. We would need some serious economical disaster (Wall Street Crash; Germany's Treaty of Versailles) in order to cause enough tension to trigger something comparable to the 1930s. What I mean by times seem hard, is that statistics often paint a different picture to what the mainstream media would suggest - gun violence in America had rapidly decreased, yet by looking at social media you'd think numbers were at an all time high. Where have you seen people advocating throwing people out of their own homes? Thanks for your comment. Hope you're well xxx |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 21:51:49 GMT
I guess I just don't see how the best solution to someones circumstances getting somewhat worse (and this stuff - immigration, the economy, gentrification etc. - comes and goes) is to vote to ensure other peoples lives become virtually impossible. There are ways to better your circumstances that don't involve worsening those of others. Even to the point that, according to people in this thread, gay people will vote in a vice president that believes in gay conversion therapy. Not only that, but with Brexit at least, people make it worse for their own children who might not have the chance to move to other European countries with any ease, limiting their freedom to travel, work and live. I think you mean me! What I was trying to say in my earlier post, and failing it seems, is that my Latino pals in Miami weren't voting FOR Trump, the were voting AGAINST Hillary. Because a large proportion of the US population hate her. Anyway it was just on the BBC news that white women were responsible for getting Donny in power so lay off my gays  No I got what you were saying, it's just insanity to me that they would rather vote for a president and vice president that hate them and don't believe in their right to be themselves than Hillary. The same with women that voted for him when he treats them like dirt on the bottom of his shoe. Although I'm not sure we can say white women were responsible...white PEOPLE more like. White men voted for him more than anyone else. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 10, 2016 21:59:10 GMT
I think you mean me! What I was trying to say in my earlier post, and failing it seems, is that my Latino pals in Miami weren't voting FOR Trump, the were voting AGAINST Hillary. Because a large proportion of the US population hate her. Anyway it was just on the BBC news that white women were responsible for getting Donny in power so lay off my gays No I got what you were saying, it's just insanity to me that they would rather vote for a president and vice president that hate them and don't believe in their right to be themselves than Hillary. The same with women that voted for him when he treats them like dirt on the bottom of his shoe. Although I'm not sure we can say white women were responsible...white PEOPLE more like. White men voted for him more than anyone else. BBC 6 o clock news. What's your basis for saying white men voted for him more than anyone? www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/10/white-women-donald-trump-victory |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 22:05:29 GMT
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19,787 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 10, 2016 22:20:27 GMT
Yep so if those white women hadn't voted for him, he wouldn't have got it. Why do you think those women voted for him? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 22:26:03 GMT
Yep so if those white women hadn't voted for him, he wouldn't have got it. Why do you think those women voted for him? Well yes, I'm just saying that saying 'white women caused this' is reductive and completely excuses white men for voting in even bigger numbers. White people of both genders caused this. Could be any number of reasons. They hate the policies of the Democrats, they're overly religious, they suffer from internalised misogyny, they're anti-immigrant, they're homophobic etc. Probably different reasons on a case by case basis. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 22:30:07 GMT
I agree with you that times SEEM hard, but to compare it to the 1930's is ridiculous. We would need some serious economical disaster (Wall Street Crash; Germany's Treaty of Versailles) in order to cause enough tension to trigger something comparable to the 1930s. I'm not talking about times being hard. I'm talking about the attitude some people have towards other people: blaming some easily defined group of Others for their problems and treating them as unwanted. What exactly do you think it means when people talk about not allowing EU citizens to remain in the UK? It's not an abstract situation. It's real people wondering what it will mean for their children having to be uprooted to live in a different country. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 10, 2016 22:37:12 GMT
Yep so if those white women hadn't voted for him, he wouldn't have got it. Why do you think those women voted for him? Well yes, I'm just saying that saying 'white women caused this' is reductive and completely excuses white men for voting in even bigger numbers. White people of both genders caused this. Could be any number of reasons. They hate the policies of the Democrats, they're overly religious, they suffer from internalised misogyny, they're anti-immigrant, they're homophobic etc. Probably different reasons on a case by case basis. Ok so to repeat your point from earlier, according to 'people in this thread' (you) white women will vote in a president who talks about "grabbing pussy"? You singled out my post about my friends in Miami as if they were idiots but everyone had their reasons for voting for him. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 22:49:47 GMT
Well yes, I'm just saying that saying 'white women caused this' is reductive and completely excuses white men for voting in even bigger numbers. White people of both genders caused this. Could be any number of reasons. They hate the policies of the Democrats, they're overly religious, they suffer from internalised misogyny, they're anti-immigrant, they're homophobic etc. Probably different reasons on a case by case basis. Ok so to repeat your point from earlier, according to 'people in this thread' (you) white women will vote in a president who talks about "grabbing pussy"? You singled out my post about my friends in Miami as if they were idiots but everyone had their reasons for voting for him. I'm sorry if I offended you for bringing up your friends but I was just repeating your own example. I'm not trying to say that your friends are worse than women or anyone else that did the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 0:02:01 GMT
This guy should have run for president. He showed more humanity in 20 minutes than Trump and Clinton combined ever did in their entire lives. And this was even before his son Beau died.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 0:38:21 GMT
I'm pretty sure his son dying was why he didn't run.
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Post by Jon on Nov 11, 2016 1:25:10 GMT
I imagine Trump will be under a huge amount of pressure to deliver the promises he made and he likely won't be able to and the knifes will be out for him if he makes even one mistake. I wouldn't be surprised if he only does one term and doesn't stand for reelection in 2020
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Post by Michael on Nov 11, 2016 4:43:43 GMT
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 11, 2016 6:03:29 GMT
You have a guy who has openly admitted he has sheltered his tax for 20 years and he has been found as acceptable by the American public.
Conversely I am in New York now and whilst riding the subway, I see a guy begging (nothing unusual there), who looked well and a person who could hold down a job, but he was desperate - but what made it appalling he had his 2 children with him..................So who does America really work for?
Donald Trump will be only president for 4 years and will lose a lot of power in 2 years time, when the House of Representatives will go Democratic. Then the next president of the USA will be black and female, she is very smart, more intelligent than her husband, and an excellent communicator, her name is Michelle Obama and she will win by a landslide.
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Post by Jan on Nov 11, 2016 7:47:49 GMT
You have a guy who has openly admitted he has sheltered his tax for 20 years and he has been found as acceptable by the American public. |
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Post by theunderstudy on Nov 11, 2016 9:32:04 GMT
Whatever happened to fair dealing
And pure ethics
And nice manners?
Why is it everyone now is a pain in the Ass?
Whatever happened to class?
Class.
Whatever happened to Please may I
And Yes thank you
And How charming?
Now every son of a bitch
Is a snake in the grass
Whatever happened to class?
Class.
Oh, there ain't no gentelmen to open up the doors,
There ain't no ladies now there's only pigs and whores
And even kids'll knock you down so's they can pass
Nobody's got no class!!!
Whatever happened to old values
And fine morals
And good breeding?
Now no-one even says oops
When they're passing their gas
Whatever happened to class?
Class.
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133 posts
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Post by whygodwhytoday on Nov 11, 2016 13:12:49 GMT
I'm not talking about times being hard. I'm talking about the attitude some people have towards other people: blaming some easily defined group of Others for their problems and treating them as unwanted I EXACTLY think it means... You're confusing your generic racist with a politician. I've never met people who've said they want EU citizens out of the UK, only they want future immigration controlled. May expects 4/5 EU citizens to be able to remain. Of course there are people in the UK with racist views who say they want all EU residents out, but I've yet to find an MP with power who advocates such thinking. "Uprooted to live in a different country". The migration of people is celebrated when people are coming into the UK - "Mankind has always moved and migrated" is a phrase we often hear on QuestionTime; yet when it comes to people leaving the UK, a country the same people are happy to call the land of racism and bigotry, people have an issue with it. I agree it will be horrible if people are uprooted, but if migrants have resided in the UK for more than 5 years then, unless legislation changes, it is unlikely they'll have to. (https://fullfact.org/europe/brexit-which-eu-citizens-will-have-right-stay-uk/) Your idea works both ways. White working class men, in the run up to the US election were blamed for - sexism, racism, homophobia; Hillary even called Trump supporters "deplorables". |
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Post by whygodwhytoday on Nov 11, 2016 13:15:57 GMT
Not entirely sure how a billionaire TV star who's gotten away with sexual assault and other crimes multiple times is an underdog. Trump is the very definition of the elite. There are only so many times you can call racism and sexism before people start to question such narratives. Trump gets called racist and sexist all the time because he says and does racist and sexist things all the time. That's objective fact. It's like complaining that Hillary constantly being described as a woman is a narrative. You're telling me Trump wasn't an underdog in this election? |
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Post by whygodwhytoday on Nov 11, 2016 13:27:53 GMT
What's that saying I've seen a lot of lately... "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression". If as a white person you feel oppressed, maybe ask yourself why that might be and if it helps you consider how non-white people feel ALL THE TIME, as opposed to just whining about it. Progressives have been blaming white people for their problems since the 90's now. Things have only got worse for them. I fail to see the improvement Obama has left on the non-white community in America. What group of people are you referring to when you say "when you're accustomed..." ? No one in America has had an easy ride. The concept of calling out someones privilege is ridiculous and that's because it's futile - feminists have tried it on men, etc... - but that's only my subjective opinion. xxx |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 13:39:41 GMT
I'm pretty sure his son dying was why he didn't run. Yes, that's true. He didn't run because his son had died not so long ago. Completely understandable. Joe has been through a lot in his life. After losing his first wife and his daughter in a car crash many years ago, to then lose one of his sons. I can only imagine what it must be like. Still such a shame he didn't run. Instead of having a choice between "the lesser of two evils", they could have had a genuinely good man running for president. |
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Post by DuchessConstance on Nov 11, 2016 15:42:11 GMT
Not entirely sure how a billionaire TV star who's gotten away with sexual assault and other crimes multiple times is an underdog. Trump is the very definition of the elite. Trump gets called racist and sexist all the time because he says and does racist and sexist things all the time. That's objective fact. It's like complaining that Hillary constantly being described as a woman is a narrative. You're telling me Trump wasn't an underdog in this election? Trump has never been the underdog in his life. You seem to confuse criticism (or rather, being held accountable for your crimes and actions) with being an underdog. Make no mistake, Trump is the very elitist of the elite. He is not on the side of the "little people," no matter how good he is at brainwashing people into thinking he is with empty promises and rhetoric. |
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Post by whygodwhytoday on Nov 11, 2016 16:15:24 GMT
You're telling me Trump wasn't an underdog in this election? Trump has never been the underdog in his life. You seem to confuse criticism (or rather, being held accountable for your crimes and actions) with being an underdog. Make no mistake, Trump is the very elitist of the elite. He is not on the side of the "little people," no matter how good he is at brainwashing people into thinking he is with empty promises and rhetoric. I'm referring to the first definition of the word, sorry. I should have made that clear. x underdog ˈʌndədɒɡ/ noun a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest. "we go into this game as the underdogs" a person who has little status in society. "what is it like to be an underdog in America?" |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 18:14:18 GMT
Busy with work and house moving so good to be able to look at this with a clearer perspective than a few days ago. Worried that my ipad will crash so apologies for there being two posts, one on the US and one on the UK, for whom there are two very different imperatives now.
For the US and the people there, whatever we can say or do it's up to them alone if they want to improve their country's standing in the world and take their country back. How? There needs to be more division. To explain.....
There is a 10% group or thereabouts who look as though they wanted to send a message and, being persuadable, they are the ones who matter, yet no argument, no discussion, no persuasion will make them change at this point (and discussion and such are vastly overrated as ways of changing minds in any case). The only thing that can do that is experience, experience measured against expectation. Figures show that, in general, the republican vote was no higher than Romney's so it is those who made the choice not to choose who made the difference. Those who didn't vote when they did last time. Make no mistake, the lack of choice is something that they own, it was done as a tacit acceptance that you go along with what others choose for you. For these people time will lead to reevaluation, a reminding for people who are reachable. Nothing beats experience as a tool for changing minds.
Other groups who created this situation may do the same (conservatives in the GOP etc.) but one, the 10% or so who are the extremists, the race baiters, those who live by male dominance, those who now are expecting laws to hurt anyone from gay men to anyone they deem 'liberal' (and, yes, they don't actually have any idea what liberalism is, economically or otherwise) must be fought, and yes Americans must, if they don't want this to become the new status quo, literally fight them. As it is now, the KKK and their ilk know that they are central and valued supporters of this President, part of the coalition needed to elect a government like this (as an example, coded anti-semitic language was openly used in campaign videos). Civil resistance is probably going to be necessary. There are too many historical echoes to remind Americans that extremists need to be marginalised and fought, especially when they feel acknowledged and powerful. If fear of blood being spilt leads to inaction, the consequences of that inaction in the face of this group is much, much worse. My heart does go out to all of the new president's hate figures, from those of a different race, sexuality or gender but sitting back and waiting till it blows over is not a good option.
So what the US needs is more division, division that marginalises the extremists and peels away those whose inactiion gave them approval. Those who gave extremists their now powerful voice.
The UK and where we stand to follow.....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 18:34:37 GMT
So how are we affected?
Foreign policy, trade and supranational matters such as climate change.
Here we can assume from everything that has been said that the US, for the next four years, will become more isolationist and will not lead in NATO, the UN etc. We can also presume that trade will be only done on terms favourable to the US. Words about being at the front of the queue avoid the clear message that Trump communicates whereby he expects others to kneel at his America's feet.
Two words to strike fear in any PM. Bush. Blair.
No UK PM should get anywhere close to this president, they will become toxic by association, even moreso than Blair. Their domestic policy will become nought when weighed against the internatiional actions they have to go along with, especially as that appears to include siding with the anti European belligerent Putin, now acknowledged to have been in constant contact with the Trump campaign throughout the election.
The Putin connection alone means that we should have no connection to US foreign policy. On the doorstep of the Baltics we need to support our fellow Europeans. With NATO and the UN neutered then European defence co-operation and organisation is now more necessary. Ignore Brexit on this issue, we have a shared history of the dangers of unchecked Expansionism.
On trade also, we need access to the single market. Trade with the US will not be favourable to us and, whilst we build up other areas, we need it to keep our economy on a solid footing.
For both, our nearby European allies are important, in fact Europe regulating its own extremes is now even more key, neutering Le Pen, dwarfing the power of an Orban. China too, not a democracy as we know it but more in line with our outlook on free trade. In fact China is the big winner here, an inward looking US wth diminished moral authority leaves an opening for them to become the leader of the world earlier than even they might have expected. We need to form alliances and be an important player in China.
Can China lead on climate change? Well that is more difficult.
Oh, and Farage is scum, Obama was the best US president for a while, hobbled by a far right resurgence and associated hate campaign (that campaign now reaching its goal as of this week).
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Post by Jan on Nov 11, 2016 18:44:37 GMT
Six million fewer people voted for Clinton than voted for Obama. So she lost. Dismissing them as racists, which the hard of thinking here do, is patently absurd and will not help the Democrats to win next time.
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