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Post by 141920grm on Apr 27, 2021 13:29:50 GMT
From what I gather, I don't think the old guard (at least cast-wise) really want to be back given what's happened to the show. And they’re completely justified, this whole transition has just been absolute shambles. Alienating a generation of performers who have loved and contributed so much to the original. But perhaps this is exactly what Cammack & co want, a clean break and a new cohort of people who have only ever known his tyrannical “creativity” as the norm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2021 14:23:32 GMT
Is anyone in the cast over 35? By-and-large Band A recruits I see. I suppose that's in keeping with the age of the characters back at the turn of that century. Nothing wrong with it, but CMLs obsession with graduates is a little unhealthy. There's alot to be said for seasoned professionals, but CML is intent on penny pinching so the juniors get the gig. Hopefully they don't look as awkwardly made up, aged and stuffed as they do in Les Mis. Would be interested to know the average age of the cast on Broadway vs London. God forbid graduates get given opportunities to establish themselves in the industry... Don't get me wrong, I get that perspective, but there is a whole industry to get that experience in. I find it interesting CML seem to choose such young, sometimes inexperienced casts for their biggest, flagship, top tier shows. The whole chain of experience is demolished, veteran knowledge evaporates as there's no one to pass it down. It seems like the industry chews up alot of young people and spits them out so quickly, before they get a real chance to make a mark, because within 4yrs of graduating you've done the biggest shows in London. Where do you go once you've done Phantom, Les Mis, etc? Into the pile of fodder for another 22yr old to replace you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2021 14:26:39 GMT
Is anyone in the cast over 35? By-and-large Band A recruits I see. I suppose that's in keeping with the age of the characters back at the turn of that century. Nothing wrong with it, but CMLs obsession with graduates is a little unhealthy. There's alot to be said for seasoned professionals, but CML is intent on penny pinching so the juniors get the gig. Hopefully they don't look as awkwardly made up, aged and stuffed as they do in Les Mis. Would be interested to know the average age of the cast on Broadway vs London. You can get away with paying younger people less.... that’s why loads of shows have people far too young playing older roles. Drives me crazy. Exactly, it's rotten. Nothing artistic about those decisions, poor kids cast, expected to fend for themselves on some of the biggest shows going, thinking they've got their big break, but its just another producer driven choice to pay the minimum.
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Post by 141920grm on Apr 27, 2021 14:53:08 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I get that perspective, but there is a whole industry to get that experience in. I find it interesting CML seem to choose such young, sometimes inexperienced casts for their biggest, flagship, top tier shows. The whole chain of experience is demolished, veteran knowledge evaporates as there's no one to pass it down. It seems like the industry chews up alot of young people and spits them out so quickly, before they get a real chance to make a mark, because within 4yrs of graduating you've done the biggest shows in London. Where do you go once you've done Phantom, Les Mis, etc? Into the pile of fodder for another 22yr old to replace you. Yes, all of this. Obviously I'm excited and happy for the graduates who get to make their professional debut on one the biggest WE shows (and have discovered many new favourite actors this way), but I also think Phantom and other "flagship, top tier" shows should cast older/more experienced, something to be "worked towards" in a career. There's no lack of talent in the higher age ranges, and I just really want some leads with gravitas... The way these shows are set up- people will always aspire to join them, no need to run in headfirst fresh out of school only to get spit out after a few years. I respect that some might genuinely want to work their way up, stay in a show for the long run, but Cameron's made it clear now that he scorns & will not make it easy for anyone who wishes to follow this kind of career path.
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Post by theatremole on Apr 27, 2021 17:11:38 GMT
You know that age has nothing to do with pay...right?
Equity set the minimum depending on venue size. Leads then get more on top of that, as to understudies, featured ensemble, swing etc...it doesn't matter if the lead is 19 or 56.
Agents can and often do negotiate something extra on top for their clients but often it's just the Equity minimum for your position depending on venue size and perhaps a betterment clause.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Apr 27, 2021 17:13:13 GMT
You know that age has nothing to do with pay...right? Equity set the minimum depending on venue size. Leads then get more on top of that, as to understudies, featured ensemble, swing etc...it doesn't matter if the lead is 19 or 56. Agents can and often do negotiate something extra on top for their clients but often it's just the Equity minimum for your position depending on venue size and perhaps a betterment clause. Yes but older , more experienced actors aren’t quite as prepared to take a minimal wage.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2021 17:15:52 GMT
You know that age has nothing to do with pay...right? Equity set the minimum depending on venue size. Leads then get more on top of that, as to understudies, featured ensemble, swing etc...it doesn't matter if the lead is 19 or 56. Agents can and often do negotiate something extra on top for their clients but often it's just the Equity minimum for your position depending on venue size and perhaps a betterment clause. Yes but older , more experienced actors aren’t quite as prepared to take a minimal wage. Plus with experience comes an Agent with more negotiating power.
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Post by danb on Apr 27, 2021 17:20:14 GMT
Unpopular opinion here, but how many peoples mortgages, car loans and food bills has he paid for by employing them for the past 30 years? We don’t have jobs for life anymore so why should he have to go on employing the same people ad infinitum just because? Neither I nor anyone else I know works without the risk of it being taken away. The company I work for recently shook up its management structure and we all had to reapply for our jobs, not necessarily in the same place, with many people being unsuccessful and having to take a demotion or redundancy. Consumerism has got to the point that manpower is the only cost left that can be reduced. Given that theatre is both an art form and a business, we cannot reasonably expect it not to be affected by market forces however much it bothers our sense of affection for the show or sense of fair play.
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Post by theatremole on Apr 27, 2021 17:23:58 GMT
You're assuming that young actors aren't going to have a good agent. Drama schools are pretty hot on this these days. Also, Lucy St Louis has already been the lead in a big musical (she was Diana Ross in Motown), she's not a complete newbie.
On another note, I'd prefer to see a younger Phantom cast. It's always made me a little uncomfortable having a much older Phantom with a young Christine.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 27, 2021 19:50:56 GMT
All posts made in the last couple of hours have been removed. Sorry if yours has been caught in the cross-fire but there is too much comment directed at other members rather than the show and the creatives. The thread will remain locked for a while to allow people to chill out.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 28, 2021 5:57:54 GMT
The thread is open. Please direct your comments at the production and not each other. Thank you.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 28, 2021 6:40:14 GMT
Just saw a comment from someone on IG saying that they should have brought Ramin and Sierra back for the London opening 😆
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Post by richey on Apr 28, 2021 7:27:38 GMT
Got a spare $20,000 and want to own one of the original props?
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on Apr 28, 2021 8:58:13 GMT
Just saw a comment from someone on IG saying that they should have brought Ramin and Sierra back for the London opening 😆 NO. They're excellent of course. BUT COME ON. Let's give new talent a chance. On a random note - Lucy St Louis is an amazing name.
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Post by musicalmarge on Apr 28, 2021 8:58:57 GMT
I don’t understand your “change is coming?” Have you seen Six? Lion King? Hamilton? Colour blind casting in Les Mis decades ago.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2021 10:02:29 GMT
Just saw a comment from someone on IG saying that they should have brought Ramin and Sierra back for the London opening 😆 Steve Harley is still bitter he never got chance to play the Phantom, maybe he could have a go?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 28, 2021 10:27:47 GMT
Get Brightman back!
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Post by mrbarnaby on Apr 28, 2021 10:40:07 GMT
I’m Waiting for the next Cameron announcement saying that due to cost issues Madame Giry will also play Carlotta and Ballet Girl #4
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Post by Dawnstar on Apr 28, 2021 11:17:51 GMT
I don’t understand your “change is coming?” Have you seen Six? Lion King? Hamilton? Colour blind casting in Les Mis decades ago.
I find it a bit odd that there have been loads of comments on social media about a black actress playing Christine but I haven't seen any comments about an Asian actress playing Carlotta. Surely that is equally diverse? It sometimes seems as though people saying they want more diversity only care about more visibility of black people and not about any other ethnicities.
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Post by musicalmarge on Apr 28, 2021 11:26:56 GMT
I don’t understand your “change is coming?” Have you seen Six? Lion King? Hamilton? Colour blind casting in Les Mis decades ago.
I find it a bit odd that there have been loads of comments on social media about a black actress playing Christine but I haven't seen any comments about an Asian actress playing Carlotta. Surely that is equally diverse? It sometimes seems as though people saying they want more diversity only care about more visibility of black people and not about any other ethnicities.
THIS! Why are there no Polish people on TV or in adverts? I’m friends with dozens and I believe almost 2 million polish people now live in the UK. Also asian actors? When was the last time we saw one in a soap? Why can’t a white actor play an animal in the Lion king? It’s not real life. Positive discrimination can only happen it seems one way and black/African mixed race heritage to counter act social justice, BLM, centuries of systemic racism, mass murder and slavery it seems. Anyway I know Lucy personally so I’m very pleased for her, she’s beautiful and very talented.
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Post by FairyGodmother on Apr 28, 2021 12:06:35 GMT
Carlotta isn't a very sympathetic character. Or because under all the heavy make up you can't usually tell what ethnicity she is anyway?
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Post by southstreet on Apr 28, 2021 13:21:58 GMT
I don’t understand your “change is coming?” Have you seen Six? Lion King? Hamilton? Colour blind casting in Les Mis decades ago.
I find it a bit odd that there have been loads of comments on social media about a black actress playing Christine but I haven't seen any comments about an Asian actress playing Carlotta. Surely that is equally diverse? It sometimes seems as though people saying they want more diversity only care about more visibility of black people and not about any other ethnicities.
I don't think that is necessarily the case. All I personally have seen cast announcement wise is Christine, Raoul and Phantom, mainly because those are the lead roles and with me not having much of an interest in the show (I hate the sound of soprano singing LOL) I haven't looked into the full breakdown of the cast. At the end of the day Carlotta is not a lead role and I am certain that had they cast an Asian Christine, there would have been just as many comments about it. At least in my theater-ey circles, which include people from all ethnic backgrounds. That said, there has to be A LOT of work done overall, and Asian representation has to also increase for sure. I know how hard as it is for black performers I know to get leads in "no-specific ethnicity required" kinda roles, it's even harder for all the Asian performers I know. Which is why representation and (as people like to call it) positive discrimination is so important, because whilst very few black people see themselves represented on stage, there are even less Asians, hence also a lot less Asians trying to get into the industry. There is a reason why it's impossible to cast Miss Saigon in the UK with homegrown talent, it's not that the talent isn't there, it's because the talent doesn't enter the industry. Also a good point about representation of other Europeans in the UK and especially with anything that is supposedly based in London. If my road is anything to go by, Albert Square should have at least three families from different European backgrounds live in it, on top of a few from Asia, Africa and Down Under. Or at least one each. LOL
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Post by theatrenewbie on Apr 28, 2021 13:30:47 GMT
Oh dear oh my what can of worms have I opened...
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Post by mrbarnaby on Apr 28, 2021 13:53:05 GMT
No good can come of this conversation!
I’m just happy that Lucy St L has got the role. She’s very talented and a lovely performer. I hope she’s not in it too long though so she can be cast in something more exciting!
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Post by ceebee on Apr 28, 2021 15:14:46 GMT
So, looking at the latest email this afternoon, it looks like those who booked tickets for POTO prior to 27 July will be invited to a priority booking bunfight on 30 April rather than have their seats reassigned. I may be wrong, but am reading between the lines as there has been no other communication regarding prebooked tickets. Any other first-nighters heard anything, or are you in limbo too?
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on Apr 28, 2021 15:21:37 GMT
I don’t understand your “change is coming?” Have you seen Six? Lion King? Hamilton? Colour blind casting in Les Mis decades ago.
I find it a bit odd that there have been loads of comments on social media about a black actress playing Christine but I haven't seen any comments about an Asian actress playing Carlotta. Surely that is equally diverse? It sometimes seems as though people saying they want more diversity only care about more visibility of black people and not about any other ethnicities.
I believe on Broadway they had a Filipino Christine.
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Post by scarpia on Apr 28, 2021 17:09:20 GMT
You're assuming that young actors aren't going to have a good agent. Drama schools are pretty hot on this these days. Also, Lucy St Louis has already been the lead in a big musical (she was Diana Ross in Motown), she's not a complete newbie. On another note, I'd prefer to see a younger Phantom cast. It's always made me a little uncomfortable having a much older Phantom with a young Christine. This is the totally opposite opinion to mine -- I hate having younger Phantoms, unless they can "age up" (JOJ did this very well in this first run when he was still in his mid-30s). The Phantom needs to be old enough for Christine to wonder if he's her father - that's even in the libretto. Also, he cannot have the experience given to him (Shah of Persia, having a hand in constructing the Garnier etc) without being at least in his 40s. If it creeps you out then good, it's supposed to. This is why Phantoms like Ramin never did it for me, because they acted way too young. On another note, I was thinking about the HM's refurb. I'm not sure I like the idea that they're restoring the greenish colour scheme of the ceiling in the theatre just before the proscenium arch. It was all painted black before (and I assume it was done for the production, since it's the same case at the Majestic) and that suited the whole 'black box' stuff of the production. With the restoration plans, the colour scheme seems to be incoherent with the colours of the show's set design. Not sure why they didn't just wait till this thing shutters before restoring the colour scheme?
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Post by justafan on Apr 28, 2021 17:13:49 GMT
So, looking at the latest email this afternoon, it looks like those who booked tickets for POTO prior to 27 July will be invited to a priority booking bunfight on 30 April rather than have their seats reassigned. I may be wrong, but am reading between the lines as there has been no other communication regarding prebooked tickets. Any other first-nighters heard anything, or are you in limbo too? Yep in limbo
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Post by fiyero on Apr 28, 2021 17:14:43 GMT
So, looking at the latest email this afternoon, it looks like those who booked tickets for POTO prior to 27 July will be invited to a priority booking bunfight on 30 April rather than have their seats reassigned. I may be wrong, but am reading between the lines as there has been no other communication regarding prebooked tickets. Any other first-nighters heard anything, or are you in limbo too? I took it that today’s email was a wider one and not linked to our booking. Hopefully we’ll hear soon!
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Post by scarpia on Apr 28, 2021 17:17:49 GMT
From what I gather, I don't think the old guard (at least cast-wise) really want to be back given what's happened to the show. And they’re completely justified, this whole transition has just been absolute shambles. Alienating a generation of performers who have loved and contributed so much to the original. But perhaps this is exactly what Cammack & co want, a clean break and a new cohort of people who have only ever known his tyrannical “creativity” as the norm. And part of what saddens me about that is that means there will be no one in the cast who will ever have worked with Hal Prince. Or Gillian Lynne. But I think that's what Cameron clearly wants. Mackintosh calls out ALW sometimes for dabbling in producing when it's not his thing (he was quite critical of how ALW managed Sunset), yet he can be equally criticised for posing as a creative when he's not. He wants to be a director, so much so that in recent years (esp Barnum and Witches of Eastwick, and of course ALL the Laurence Connor productions) he just hires young directors who have no clout and are overruled and just follow what he dictates (as opposed to theatrical titans like Trevor Nunn and Hal Prince who would not have accepted that). That will be the same I imagine with Sklar-Heyn.
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