Winter Fuel Vote

Corbyn lost because he is not an effective political leader.
Doing politics effectively means moving your agenda forward by compromising and occasionally making decisions your own side won’t like to achieve the overall aim.

It’s easy to win votes when you tell people exactly what they want to hear, safe in the knowledge that you won’t have to try to deliver on those promises. Actually getting stuff done is harder.

You are Peter Mandelson and I claim my £5

I've never said that. Corbo is just not a leader. Imagine not getting behind that manifesto though, as a member of the Labour party? Did have a lot of people vote for him though that election

Okay, but if they are trailing this ahead of the Autumn Statement there should be real Catherine wheel fireworks on 30th Oct.

Yes the optics are certainly bad. It feels more and more like the very rich are untouchable and the working and middle classes are continuing to be asked to make sacrifices.

All I really want from a government at this point is to try to bring public services more into public ownership, and tax the billionaires more. 

Obv. not theatregoers - WFA makes a nice Christmassy day out with the kids or grandkids, might stretch to a little lunch beforehand.

The blanket payment was brought in because it was too difficult to work out who needed it?

Is it really that difficult though? Or is the process overcooked with bureaucracy? We have a Universal Credit system which successfully tracks those receiving it, how much they are currently earning, and how much they may or may not need at the end of each month in order to survive.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fuel-poverty-and-winter-fuel-payment-in-england-ad-hoc-statistics-2023-and-2024

Summary says:

Poverty is still poverty, nonetheless, difficult to understand why this wasn't made available before the vote, or furore.

These are good points jojo - my parents are both fortunately in pretty good health but still the 25p uplift was quite amusing after the removal of the £300 winter fuel allowance. I still marvel at a country that is financially on its knees can still afford to spend billions on wars.

I think it's fair to say the state pension has been too low for too long - hence the introduction of the triple lock to steadily increase it relative to inflation. Comparisons with other countries can be interesting, but as you say SilverFox, there's a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric, so it can be hard to know what to really believe unless you are an expert.

I do know that some comparisons that are particularly unfavourable to the UK are out of date (so you aren't seeing the full impact of the triple lock), but perhaps most crucially, aren't comparing like with like. In Germany there is a state administered private pension so to speak. In other words - workers who in this country would pay into a private or company pension will pay the state for the same service. The average pension therefore paid out by the state in Germany is akin to the average state + private pension in the UK. The other big issue rarely considered in politically motivated comparisons are the contribution of 'extras'. In many European countries everyone pays a nominal amount to see their GP and will pay a nominal amount towards prescriptions. Not to mention the BBC licence fee and bus passes, and I'm sure lots of other little things that subsidise the cost of living for pensioners. Some other European countries will have free services for pensioners too, but unless you put the effort into finding out (which few do) then comparisons need a massive pinch of salt.

I also agree, unfortunately, about the divisions in society. Simply redistributing wealth isn't going to cut it. We need housing costs to come down, which means a lot more house building, in particular building the right housing in the right places. That's not popular with a lot of people who already have their home, who are also the ones most likely to vote. This is where I wave the flag for electoral reform too - the current FPTP system actively supports regional inequalities.

I'd like to comment on some points raised here...

"Pensioners think that they paid in all their lives and deserve what they get but the reality is they neither paid enough tax nor had enough children."

My parents are pensioners. My dad was a successful business director and my mum a university lecturer. They had seven children. I am guessing they probably paid enough tax if compound interest is factored in.

I am not a pensioner myself, but I know that having worked for 24 years and paid millions in tax, I have already paid in far more than I will ever get back off the state even if I live to be 100. Will I also be accused of not paying enough tax in future?

The reality is that state support per se is an unaffordable luxury in a country where millions sit on their arse doing nothing and millions more end up displaced here as a result of war, famine etc. The system needs reforming but - please - let's not penalise pensioners for simply wanting the government of the day to honour the deals agreed by past governments. Any unravelling of state pensions and benefits in general will take time.

The tax burden is at extremely high levels by historical standards and has shifted heavily on the rich, the top 1% pay 30% of income tax and the top 10% pay 60%. The idea that the rich aren't being taxed is laughable.

My father faced graduated taxation which sat in the 80 and 90% for a short period. THAT was a high level. In today's world, I am one of the 1% who contribute to that 30% figure and I am proud to do so. I believe that man should help fellow man and that money should be a tool to enact change for the better. I'm neither socialist not communist but I do believe that if everybody pays their way (regardless of income) then it is a fairer society for all. Broader shoulders SHOULD carry more of the burden, if existing in an ideal and fair world. My benchmark, albeit unscientific, is that twenty years ago somebody in my tax bracket would probably be described as rich. In today's world, I don't feel rich. However, by some people's standards, perhaps I am. My point, albeit made in a clumsy way, is that I think in general we have all got poorer in the UK, irrespective of earnings. We simply don't have enough money to meet the demands of society in 2024 AND eat into the national debt. I personally think that 3% increase across the board in income tax would be a big step forward.

The logic of the welfare state is that the government appropriates money from the most productive people and then gives it to the least productive people and then people sit around and wonder why productivity is so bad.

I'm not sure I agree. I might be financially productive, but there are far more productive and deserving people than myself in this country. It just so happens they do jobs that we as a society don't value enough. We then begrudge them pay rises, partly a combination of the politics of envy and partly because successive governments have devalued such people. I'd argue that productivity is bad because, put simply, we don't produce much any more, or we don't produce enough of anything of much worth from an exportable perspective.

There was a period in time when the welfare state could look like a viable idea due to very good demographics. That era is over. The whole thing was sold on absurd notions such as Beveridge's claim that the NHS would lower healthcare spending as the population would be healthier.

The UK is currently where America was 30 years ago in terms of obesity timebombs, the culture of junkfood etc. Who the hell ever thought that society would get hooked on lukewarm junkfood being delivered by a largely zero-hours immigrant population on mopeds? We are the product of our own aspirations - junk breeds junk. We are now a junk state which will eventually hit junk status on international markets. The NHS meanwhile sails on like a ghost ship that missed its dock and is now floating in the political equivalent of the bermuda triangle. Nobody knows what to do with it and are too scared to try tackling it in case it keels over and submerges. Imagine Covid x100 if that happens.

Most people are not ready for what is necessary but it will come one way or another.

I agree entirely. There is a day of reckoning coming for the UK and it will not be pleasant and punitive taxes won't fix it. Wholesale reform and hard truths are what is required across the board - for the NHS, budget and indeed politics itself.

Wonderful to see unions even know what a lowlife policy this is and the conference voted against it.
Surprised considering all of us on this board have grandparents and elderly family that so many seem perfectly happy that this government openly lied to them about protecting pensioners just weeks ago.
By their own report issued late on a Friday 83% of over 80 year old and 71% of disabled pensioners will lose the payment. What a wonderful opening statement for this government. Everyone will be paying higher fuel bills this winter no matter what age as we have seen elections promises mean nothing to them.