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Post by max on Jun 3, 2024 15:54:14 GMT
What does it mean, and will it last? If you agree it's happened, that is.
Perhaps the 'Goes Wrong' shows heralded this new burst, and 'Operation Mincemeat' underlined it?
There've always been things that have come into the West End with more of a Fringe feel. The first Actor Musician show I saw in the West End was The Gondoliers from the Watermill (at the Apollo 2006/7 directed by John Doyle). Also things coming in from Chichester like The Mitford Girls musical (1981/2). Perhaps it's an unfair memory, but Noel and Gertie, Mitfords, P G Wodehouse often seemed to feature in subtle shows aimed at an older audience. Meanwhile big noise and scale (brilliant or awful) was happening elsewhere and catching younger attention.
Now - with Social Media bringing a sense of closeness to the company, and many shows breaking the fourth wall, it feels these fringe-style 'poor theatre' shows are the ones that appeal to younger audiences (without necessarily excluding everyone else).
Covid/austerity may have stumbled producers/theatre owners into finding that audiences WILL pay big bucks for actor talent/sweat they're rooting for and invested in, eschewing big sets or big casts. I'm a generation before shelling out £80 to £100 for branded trainers, but maybe these shows benefit from the cultivated identity of the streetsmart upstart, and are a lifestyle acquisition you give your brand loyalty to and repeat purchase.
I've gone down the ££ route, but what all this offers to a diversity of storytelling, and lively performer/audience relationships seems the warmest part of it all.
Just thoughts - may be half baked. What are yours?
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 3, 2024 16:06:32 GMT
Interesting topic and i look forward to the chat.
I suspect fringe musicals in the west end will become more prominent due to the costs of producing.
The john doyle shows i really loved and it was helped by the fact that i didnt pay much.
Play that goes wrong, currently does not look like a fringe show to me. Looks like a west end play, what ever that maybe
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Post by Jon on Jun 3, 2024 16:14:43 GMT
We're still getting big lavish shows so I don't agree that the fringe is taking over the West End.
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Post by max on Jun 3, 2024 16:14:50 GMT
I'd be intersted to hear of anyone's 'near misses' - shows from the last ten years that might have got a further West End life if the current trend (and venues, like Soho Place and the Boulevard) had been in place then.
I'll nominate the musical of 'Therese Raquin' by Craig Adams and Nona Shepphard, which went from Finborough to Park Theatre in 2014.
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Post by sph on Jun 3, 2024 16:17:14 GMT
I don't know, I read a lot of books and autobiographies by older and now long-gone theatre actors and I think there's always been some blurring of the lines between the fringe and West End. Go back to the earlier 20th Century with it's revues for example, often put together in a fringe-style manner and playing smaller houses like The Ambassadors.
Certainly yes, some of today's hits are at odds with some of the bigger blockbusters like Phantom or Wicked in terms of scale, but I think it's good that a fringe show can make it from the festivals to the West End stage.
We still get a mix of both. Grand-scale plays like Harry Potter or Dear England, and big-budget musicals like Back to the Future.
I do think the Covid years made more of an opening in the West End for those smaller shows to come in though. Would shows like Be More Chill or Cruise have made it into the West End if theatres hadn't been left vacant? I think Covid really changed the landscape.
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Post by lt on Jun 3, 2024 16:48:54 GMT
What does it mean, and will it last? If you agree it's happened, that is. Perhaps the 'Goes Wrong' shows heralded this new burst, and 'Operation Mincemeat' underlined it? There've always been things that have come into the West End with more of a Fringe feel. The first Actor Musician show I saw in the West End was The Gondoliers from the Watermill (at the Apollo 2006/7 directed by John Doyle). Also things coming in from Chichester like The Mitford Girls musical (1981/2). Perhaps it's an unfair memory, but Noel and Gertie, Mitfords, P G Wodehouse often seemed to feature in subtle shows aimed at an older audience. Meanwhile big noise and scale (brilliant or awful) was happening elsewhere and catching younger attention. Now - with Social Media bringing a sense of closeness to the company, and many shows breaking the fourth wall, it feels these fringe-style 'poor theatre' shows are the ones that appeal to younger audiences (without necessarily excluding everyone else). Covid/austerity may have stumbled producers/theatre owners into finding that audiences WILL pay big bucks for actor talent/sweat they're rooting for and invested in, eschewing big sets or big casts. I'm a generation before shelling out £80 to £100 for branded trainers, but maybe these shows benefit from the cultivated identity of the streetsmart upstart, and are a lifestyle acquisition you give your brand loyalty to and repeat purchase. I've gone down the ££ route, but what all this offers to a diversity of storytelling, and lively performer/audience relationships seems the warmest part of it all. Just thoughts - may be half baked. What are yours? Not sure there are more now, just off the top of my head, 39 steps, Handbagged, Jerry Springer: The Opera, and Stones in Their Pockets spring to mind. If the younger audience has any sense they'll watch them in the fringe venues too, which tend to be much cheaper! |
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Post by max on Jun 3, 2024 17:14:31 GMT
'Jerry Springer: The Opera' is an interesting one lt . I saw it at Battersea Arts Centre when they had Act 1, and just a fragment of Act 2 they invited the audience to stay on for after a break. I think it had even more bite when it was an upstart fringe show; still a strong show at the NT but it's hard to nip satirically at the heels of something when you're as big as the thing you target. So, for me, definitely what you say - see things on the Fringe if you can, and cheaper. [For that, London really needs a decent listings mag, or online page, otherwise you just get fed what an algorithm knows you already like - but that's another thread!] |
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Post by sph on Jun 3, 2024 18:49:14 GMT
Do you think we have an Off-West End/Fringe division?
I think nowadays, as fringe shows become a bit more ambitious and have bigger budgets, I'd consider many to be Off-West End. For example, Southwark Playhouse productions or Closer to Heaven at the Turbine are more "Off-West End". A pub theatre like the Hope theatre feels more "fringe".
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Post by ceebee on Jun 4, 2024 10:23:53 GMT
I think fringe shows are floated for subsequent trimming to a west end bob if successful.
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Post by Mark on Jun 4, 2024 10:47:46 GMT
I'd be intersted to hear of anyone's 'near misses' - shows from the last ten years that might have got a further West End life if the current trend (and venues, like Soho Place and the Boulevard) had been in place then. I'll nominate the musical of 'Therese Raquin' by Craig Adams and Nona Shepphard, which went from Finborough to Park Theatre in 2014. Hmm, I remember a few "fringe transfers" from quite few years ago. "A Man of No Importance" from the Union to the Arts, and "Toxic Avenger" from Southwark to the Arts. One that I saw on the fringe I wish had a future life was "Once Upon a time at the Adelphi". I remember it being wonderful. |
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