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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 22, 2019 14:15:40 GMT
vdcni Democracy will be seen as being upheld if as currently believed there is a majority in Parliament to extend the review period and allow the time for the Withdrawal Bill to be scrutinised, amended and passed in line with previous legislation of this magnitude. If not then British Parliamentary Democracy died today to meet a date for completion pulled out of the air for Political purposes and even more so if Johnson pulls the Bill if he does not agree with changes requested by a Parliamentary majority.
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 15:03:38 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 22, 2019 15:03:38 GMT
So democracy breaking out is forcing through a deal with next to no scrutiny and which, going by his comments today, Johnson doesn't even understand the implications of which could still lead to a no deal situation further down the line while the government threaten to pull the bill if there any attempts to amend it or spend more than a few days debating it. Some democracy.
At least you're consistent; a national referendum, two main party general election manifestos, the PM and Government, and Parliament all need to be ignored, in the interests of democracy.
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952 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 16:00:11 GMT
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Post by vdcni on Oct 22, 2019 16:00:11 GMT
So democracy breaking out is forcing through a deal with next to no scrutiny and which, going by his comments today, Johnson doesn't even understand the implications of which could still lead to a no deal situation further down the line while the government threaten to pull the bill if there any attempts to amend it or spend more than a few days debating it. Some democracy.
At least you're consistent; a national referendum, two main party general election manifestos, the PM and Government, and Parliament all need to be ignored, in the interests of democracy.
Where have I said we should ignore Parliament? I want Parliament to have proper time to scrutinise a bill that will affect the country for decades to come. The government is threatening to pull the bill if Parliament won't agree to their timetable, I'm not the one ignoring Parliament. And Johnson stood up and lied in the House today about what's actually in his government's own agreement, how is that respecting democracy. |
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 16:02:49 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 22, 2019 16:02:49 GMT
Isn't it shocking; after three years of delaying tactics it has the temerity to come to a deadline.
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1,863 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 16:06:21 GMT
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 22, 2019 16:06:21 GMT
londonpostie find it almost impossible to determine your elusive politics, not sure to look out for you in red or blue at the Peter Brook talk tonight, you’ll confound me by being in yellow.
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952 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 16:10:40 GMT
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Post by vdcni on Oct 22, 2019 16:10:40 GMT
If agreeing to something no matter what it says in order to hit a deadline is so important why didn't most of the current government do that for Theresa May's deal straight away I wonder?
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2,340 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 16:41:30 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 22, 2019 16:41:30 GMT
Amazing how much you can get done when Whitehall and the Treasury stop briefing against the PM, when Berlin and Brussels sit on their hands, and the Minister for Culture, Media and whatever mentions the BBC model looks a bit dated.
Are we in danger of democracy breaking out ..
Eh? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 17:25:19 GMT
The reason it took three years is because of any urgency or intent as regards the UK negotiating with the EU. Johnson is basically trying to hand his homework in at the last minute, hoping that it doesn’t get looked at too closely. In return he will destroy the union and get a bonfire of regulations to hurt the disadvantaged through on the sly. It’s a perversion of democracy greater than anything else mentioned, a long con.
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1,863 posts
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 22, 2019 18:57:09 GMT
Parliament has voted to leave the EU on its own terms, Referendum result has been upheld.
If Johnson pulls the Bill, Tories will be the ones that stopped Brexit.
They will try to Spun it but this is the truth if this Bill does not become law it is down to the Tories with the benefit that there is no way we will now leave on the 31st do someone needs to find a ditch.
The only amendment that counts is Customs Union, workers rights and environmental protections likely to be protected as part of the Custom alignment.
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2,340 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 19:28:24 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 22, 2019 19:28:24 GMT
The reason it took three years is because of any urgency or intent as regards the UK negotiating with the EU. Johnson is basically trying to hand his homework in at the last minute, hoping that it doesn’t get looked at too closely. In return he will destroy the union and get a bonfire of regulations to hurt the disadvantaged through on the sly. It’s a perversion of democracy greater than anything else mentioned, a long con. This |
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2,340 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 19:28:57 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 22, 2019 19:28:57 GMT
Parliament has voted to leave the EU on its own terms, Referendum result has been upheld. If Johnson pulls the Bill, Tories will be the ones that stopped Brexit. They will try to Spun it but this is the truth if this Bill does not become law it is down to the Tories with the benefit that there is no way we will now leave on the 31st do someone needs to find a ditch. The only amendment that counts is Customs Union, workers rights and environmental protections likely to be protected as part of the Custom alignment. And this |
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 19:28:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 19:28:59 GMT
Parliament has voted to leave the EU on its own terms, Referendum result has been upheld. If Johnson pulls the Bill, Tories will be the ones that stopped Brexit. They will try to Spun it but this is the truth if this Bill does not become law it is down to the Tories with the benefit that there is no way we will now leave on the 31st do someone needs to find a ditch. The only amendment that counts is Customs Union, workers rights and environmental protections likely to be protected as part of the Custom alignment. For me it has to include access to the European Economic Area, similar to Norway and Iceland. We need people, we need Europeans to be part of our economy. On a personal level, I had surgery last year with a Spanish surgeon, my doctor is from Eastern Europe. If people think the NHS is struggling now, with weeks to wait for an appointment, just wait to see what it will be like when that employment channel dries up. The least hurtful to the country as a whole, whether that be big business or breadline pensioner, is for both Customs Union and Single Market membership. The most interesting feedback from pollsters/focus group this week was on the idea of Brexit not being over. The lie from Johnson and co that Brexit will be ‘done’ has been swallowed by low information voters. When it was shown that this is not the end but the start there was “horrified silence”. In the end, though, my ultimate ‘red line’ is the Union (UK, that is). Anything that threatens that is a no (sorry SNP, Plaid, Mebyon Kernow etc). |
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2,340 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 19:30:47 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 22, 2019 19:30:47 GMT
Parliament has voted to leave the EU on its own terms, Referendum result has been upheld. If Johnson pulls the Bill, Tories will be the ones that stopped Brexit. They will try to Spun it but this is the truth if this Bill does not become law it is down to the Tories with the benefit that there is no way we will now leave on the 31st do someone needs to find a ditch. The only amendment that counts is Customs Union, workers rights and environmental protections likely to be protected as part of the Custom alignment. For me it has to include access to the European Economic Area, similar to Norway and Iceland. We need people, we need Europeans to be part of our economy. On a personal level, I had surgery last year with a Spanish surgeon, my doctor is from Eastern Europe. If people think the NHS is struggling now, with weeks to wait for an appointment, just wait to see what it will be like when that employment channel dries up. The least hurtful to the country as a whole, whether that be big business or breadline pensioner, is for both Customs Union and Single Market membership. The most interesting feedback from pollsters/focus group this week was on the idea of Brexit not being over. The lie from Johnson and co that Brexit will be ‘done’ has been swallowed by low information voters. When it iwas shown that this is not the end but the start there was “horrified silence”. In the end, though, my ultimate ‘red line’ is the Union (UK, that is). Anything that threatens that is a no (sorry SNP, Plaid, Mebyon Kernow etc). Are you sure you are not Jeremy Corbyn? |
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 19:33:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 19:33:59 GMT
For me it has to include access to the European Economic Area, similar to Norway and Iceland. We need people, we need Europeans to be part of our economy. On a personal level, I had surgery last year with a Spanish surgeon, my doctor is from Eastern Europe. If people think the NHS is struggling now, with weeks to wait for an appointment, just wait to see what it will be like when that employment channel dries up. The least hurtful to the country as a whole, whether that be big business or breadline pensioner, is for both Customs Union and Single Market membership. The most interesting feedback from pollsters/focus group this week was on the idea of Brexit not being over. The lie from Johnson and co that Brexit will be ‘done’ has been swallowed by low information voters. When it iwas shown that this is not the end but the start there was “horrified silence”. In the end, though, my ultimate ‘red line’ is the Union (UK, that is). Anything that threatens that is a no (sorry SNP, Plaid, Mebyon Kernow etc). Are you sure you are not Jeremy Corbyn? Most definitely not! As far as I was aware Corbyn wants ‘a’ customs union not ‘the’ customs union and for close single market alignment rather than continued single market membership. Has that changed? |
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2,340 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 19:43:13 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 22, 2019 19:43:13 GMT
Are you sure you are not Jeremy Corbyn? Most definitely not! As far as I was aware Corbyn wants ‘a’ customs union not ‘the’ customs union and for close single market alignment rather than continued single market membership. Has that changed? Yep you are right, Jo Swinson. Sorry mis-read your post |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 19:47:03 GMT
Most definitely not! As far as I was aware Corbyn wants ‘a’ customs union not ‘the’ customs union and for close single market alignment rather than continued single market membership. Has that changed? Yep you are right, Jo Swinson. Sorry mis-read your post Well, I’d be a Joe in fact, but much closer! |
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 21:36:08 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 22, 2019 21:36:08 GMT
londonpostie find it almost impossible to determine your elusive politics, not sure to look out for you in red or blue at the Peter Brook talk tonight, you’ll confound me by being in yellow. Barely made it on time! Worth it for the anecdotes alone, esp. the butterflies. I was in reflective cycling attire so you were almost confounded  |
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1,863 posts
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 22, 2019 21:41:42 GMT
Remember this as you read the front pages tomorrow:
- Parliament has voted to progress the Withdrawal Bill and have begun the process of ratifying the Referendum result.
- Parliament are ready to discuss, scrutinise and amend the Withdrawal Act in line with regular Parliamentary process.
- The Tories have suspended the Withdrawal Bill because they couldn’t get their own way.
There is no Parliament v The People agenda, there is a Tory Brexit or no Brexit agenda.
If the Tories had worked with the Opposition Parties instead of the ERG faction in their own Party we would have left by now with the Deal that was promised / implied in the Referendum.
If the Tories had not pulled the Withdrawal Bill we could have still had a Deal that is in line the promises made in the referendum.
We need to ask as an electorate, why cannot we have a Parliament Brexit, why is the Tory hard Brexit the only one we are allowed when we go to the polls.
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 23:12:54 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Oct 22, 2019 23:12:54 GMT
If Theresa May didn’t call a fatal election, we would have left by now, Theresa would be prime minister, DUP would realise they have been sold sown the river, when they realise they couldn’t have both Brexit and remain in the union.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 7:53:35 GMT
Post by lynette on Oct 23, 2019 7:53:35 GMT
If Theresa May didn’t call a fatal election, we would have left by now, Theresa would be prime minister, DUP would realise they have been sold sown the river, when they realise they couldn’t have both Brexit and remain in the union. When Mrs T came on telly and said she was holding an election you could have heard my scream right down the street. And my language which was unfortunate as had young grandson with me. 'What happened?' he said. Whatever your views, in or out , turn it all about..her decision was really really terrible. Many what ifs and If onlys...a nice PhD for someone down the line. |
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 11:43:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 11:43:50 GMT
I still fail to see how different parts of the UK can have different laws, look at NI only just having legalised abortion. Surely if there is a UK ALL laws should be the same in all countries otherwise just devolve to each countries' parliaments and we can do away with the House of Commons and Lords. I can't speak with any detail to Northern Ireland, but when Scotland and England entered into the Act of Union in 1707, the Act maintained both legal codes because they didn't feel the need to unite them. It was a union of equals, and there was no sense that one legal code should dominate over the other. Scottish law is very different from English law (consider the 'Not Proven' verdict for starters). It's part of the joy of having an unwritten constitution. I can't imagine that any government would try to unite the two codes. Cheers David, the Scottish courts have always had their own titles but the same sentencing guidelines, things like Insolvency laws are different too. The devolved parliament which started circa 1999 gives the Scots leeway on certain things like tuition and prescription fees but I guess they have to find that money from elsewhere. Similar to how local authorities allocate their budgets. |
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 11:50:01 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 11:50:01 GMT
If Theresa May didn’t call a fatal election, we would have left by now, Theresa would be prime minister, DUP would realise they have been sold sown the river, when they realise they couldn’t have both Brexit and remain in the union. Good point, the Tory majority then was about 15 if we discount the Speaker and the Sinn Fein MPs who don't take their seat. Whether there would have been the defections from both sides we don't know. The SNP would have been a far bigger factor and the Lib Dems less so. But with some consensus I agree that an ordered Brexit could have been achieved by now. But Theresa seemed to undermine her Brexit Secretaries and thought she could get a bigger majority to perhaps become a later day Maggie Thatcher but she failed and once she lost the majority she was on borrowed time. The polls were predicting that she could get a 100 odd seat majority and with the lampooning of JC by the press and factions of his own party not agreeing with him she thought she could sweep back to power. |
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 12:33:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 12:33:45 GMT
Actually yesterday started to move the Brexit process forward, the first reading was passed and asking for more time to scrutinize the Bill is totally fair as it needs careful consideration. We'll have a new Speaker in under two weeks who will hopefully be Sir Lindsay Hoyle who may take a more neutral role than John Bercow may have done recently.
What we don't need now is an election as that would take several weeks out of the extension period. We are then getting towards the Xmas period when Parliament will be closing until January so we would be suddenly be near the end of Jan deadline.
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5,062 posts
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 16:43:30 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Oct 23, 2019 16:43:30 GMT
If Theresa May didn’t call a fatal election, we would have left by now, Theresa would be prime minister, DUP would realise they have been sold sown the river, when they realise they couldn’t have both Brexit and remain in the union. Good point, the Tory majority then was about 15 if we discount the Speaker and the Sinn Fein MPs who don't take their seat. Whether there would have been the defections from both sides we don't know. The SNP would have been a far bigger factor and the Lib Dems less so. But with some consensus I agree that an ordered Brexit could have been achieved by now. But Theresa seemed to undermine her Brexit Secretaries and thought she could get a bigger majority to perhaps become a later day Maggie Thatcher but she failed and once she lost the majority she was on borrowed time. The polls were predicting that she could get a 100 odd seat majority and with the lampooning of JC by the press and factions of his own party not agreeing with him she thought she could sweep back to power. All that glisters is not Gold!! |
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2,340 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 23, 2019 16:47:40 GMT
If Theresa May didn’t call a fatal election, we would have left by now, Theresa would be prime minister, DUP would realise they have been sold sown the river, when they realise they couldn’t have both Brexit and remain in the union. When Mrs T came on telly and said she was holding an election you could have heard my scream right down the street. And my language which was unfortunate as had young grandson with me. 'What happened?' he said. Whatever your views, in or out , turn it all about..her decision was really really terrible. Many what ifs and If onlys...a nice PhD for someone down the line. Thatcher?? 'She's dead now, which is perhaps her best quality' |
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