999 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 1:31:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 14, 2018 1:31:54 GMT
Our own residents? What a horrible choice of phrasing. As far as I'm concerned our own residents are all those legally residing here regardless of where they come from. If you mean people of British origin, then say so. And if that is the case, then what shameful treatment exactly affects them but not others? Issues with the NHS and the welfare state affect all residents no matter where they come from, issues with racism affect specific races and cultures whether the people who belong to those groups are British-born or not. I could go on, but I think the point is clear. If what you actually mean is some sort of concept of British jobs for British people or anything like that, then the simple answer to that is there are jobs there if people chose to do them, and the fact that people born abroad are doing a lot of the manual labour jobs is as much because some British people (and some non-British as well, to be fair) have decided that claiming benefits is easier than doing an honest day's work. Those people are the problem, not the victims. The victims are those who are contributing hugely to our society yet not even being guaranteed a right to continue to do so. There is nothing that can justify such discrimination as far as I'm concerned, and I can't see how anyone could possibly defend it. I echo @posterj 's question, what exactly do you mean by this? No it’s not a horrible choice of phrasing and it is this very attitude that made Brexit happen, well done. You still haven't explained what you meant by your "what about our own residents" comment. You said it in response to comments condemning how EU citizens residing in the UK are in a limbo of uncertainty and face having to pay to apply to remain in the UK, in their own homes, with their families. You therefore seem to be making a distinction between two types of legal UK residents. Is that what you're doing? You also seem to be saying that condemnation of the situation EU citizens have been put in, that expressing concern for fellow UK residents, is an attitude that caused brexit. Is that what you're saying too? |
|
4,369 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 6:43:42 GMT
Post by Michael on Dec 14, 2018 6:43:42 GMT
If no deal is likely could EU step in and extend article 50 As such, there would be a majority to extend article 50 in light of a general election being called or during negotiations for a replacement coalition. This is one area that we can be pretty sure of, that enough MPs (with prior agreement already there from the EU) will vote for an extension if it proves necessary. But can this be done unilaterally by the UK, or would the EU27 have to agree to this? Keep in mind that there is an election for the European Parliament in May 2019, so if it were extended after then, British citizens would have to vote in this election and British parties would have to nominate candidates which then would have to step down again once you've actually left the EU. |
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 8:27:25 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 8:27:25 GMT
If no deal is likely could EU step in and extend article 50 As such, there would be a majority to extend article 50 in light of a general election being called or during negotiations for a replacement coalition. This is one area that we can be pretty sure of, that enough MPs (with prior agreement already there from the EU) will vote for an extension if it proves necessary. But can this be done unilaterally by the UK, or would the EU27 have to agree to this? Keep in mind that there is an election for the European Parliament in May 2019, so if it were extended after then, British citizens would have to vote in this election and British parties would have to nominate candidates which then would have to step down again once you've actually left the EU. The EU27 have already signposted that they would extend article 50 in the event of an election or referendum so it's up to the UK government. |
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 9:02:24 GMT
sf likes this
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 9:02:24 GMT
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck.....
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 10:48:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 10:48:27 GMT
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck..... ... It's probably a Russian spy. |
|
3,040 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 17:05:20 GMT
Post by crowblack on Dec 14, 2018 17:05:20 GMT
I may have said this before, but something that has been p-ing me of for months now is seeing 'blue tick' media types complaining about the poor quality of the current political class. Yes, they're awful, but if you are a middle-class, self-confident 30-40 something white Oxbridge type with a media profile, complaining about them (on the right or the left) is like whining about being served a badly-cooked meal made by someone you knew to be incompetent but couldn't be arsed to cook yourself. And most of today's middle-aged commentariat and satirists know today's politicians, they know the calibre of them - they went to university with them, they may socialise with them, they certainly spend a lot of time talking and writing and making TV shows about them - so why do they prefer to sit on the sidelines and repost comedy gifs rather than actually getting their hands dirty, leaving the actual task of running the country to incompetents? I mean if Esther McVey can be a cabinet minister I'm sure they can, if they put their minds to it! Kudos to Glenda Jackson and Tracy Brabin who actually genuinely cared enough to do it (especially given that politics isn't very female-friendly).
|
|
5,707 posts
|
Post by lynette on Dec 14, 2018 17:10:55 GMT
The Party system doesn’t help though does it? If you want to go Into politics you have to join a Party, maybe at local level to start with and work your way up or in or around..so you have to agree with a load of rubbish along side what you actually think. So the people who don’t go into politics are people who can see the big picture and can understand nuances and arguments from all sides. The people who do go into politics, can’t.
|
|
2,342 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 17:28:52 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 14, 2018 17:28:52 GMT
No it’s not a horrible choice of phrasing and it is this very attitude that made Brexit happen, well done. You still haven't explained what you meant by your "what about our own residents" comment. You said it in response to comments condemning how EU citizens residing in the UK are in a limbo of uncertainty and face having to pay to apply to remain in the UK, in their own homes, with their families. You therefore seem to be making a distinction between two types of legal UK residents. Is that what you're doing? You also seem to be saying that condemnation of the situation EU citizens have been put in, that expressing concern for fellow UK residents, is an attitude that caused brexit. Is that what you're saying too? I would have thought it was obvious what Phantom meant. Don't think too hard |
|
2,763 posts
|
Post by n1david on Dec 14, 2018 17:29:08 GMT
The Party system doesn’t help though does it? If you want to go Into politics you have to join a Party, maybe at local level to start with and work your way up or in or around..so you have to agree with a load of rubbish along side what you actually think. So the people who don’t go into politics are people who can see the big picture and can understand nuances and arguments from all sides. The people who do go into politics, can’t. Agree completely. Student politics killed any desire to go into politics for me. I was "non-aligned", but watching people I respected supporting policies with which I knew they disagreed privately because it was the 'party line'; and student groups cynically supporting policies in order to target certain populations meant I couldn't see myself joining any of the major student political groups. That view carried on after university - if you are an aspirant politician, you have to spend many years touting the party line before you have the freedom to actually express what your personal opinions actually are (assuming you actually make it, which very few do) |
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 18:15:51 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 18:15:51 GMT
I may have said this before, but something that has been p-ing me of for months now is seeing 'blue tick' media types complaining about the poor quality of the current political class. Yes, they're awful, but if you are a middle-class, self-confident 30-40 something white Oxbridge type with a media profile, complaining about them (on the right or the left) is like whining about being served a badly-cooked meal made by someone you knew to be incompetent but couldn't be arsed to cook yourself. And most of today's middle-aged commentariat and satirists know today's politicians, they know the calibre of them - they went to university with them, they may socialise with them, they certainly spend a lot of time talking and writing and making TV shows about them - so why do they prefer to sit on the sidelines and repost comedy gifs rather than actually getting their hands dirty, leaving the actual task of running the country to incompetents? I mean if Esther McVey can be a cabinet minister I'm sure they can, if they put their minds to it! Kudos to Glenda Jackson and Tracy Brabin who actually genuinely cared enough to do it (especially given that politics isn't very female-friendly). I've a friend who is a life long Socialist although his family were "Mild Conservatives", he always gets very annoyed when unelected people speak out on politics, he says if they feel so strongly then stand for election.
There is an ongoing row in the media about Gary Lineker and former footballing colleagues having differing views on Brexit and whether they should state them. Likwise there is always suspicion about some TV interviewers' politics. Yet back in the day - Brian Walden - Ex Labour MP, Sir Robin Day - a well known Liberal and mote recently Matthew Parris - Ex Conservative MP all wrote or interviewed politicians with no thoughts from the politicians about hidden agendas.
|
|
5,707 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 18:24:22 GMT
Post by lynette on Dec 14, 2018 18:24:22 GMT
How come Gary Lineker can advertise crisps when other BBC folk are not allowed to do adverts?
|
|
1,972 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 18:26:10 GMT
Post by sf on Dec 14, 2018 18:26:10 GMT
But can this be done unilaterally by the UK, or would the EU27 have to agree to this? Keep in mind that there is an election for the European Parliament in May 2019, so if it were extended after then, British citizens would have to vote in this election and British parties would have to nominate candidates which then would have to step down again once you've actually left the EU. The EU27 have already signposted that they would extend article 50 in the event of an election or referendum so it's up to the UK government.
Extending the Article 50 requires unanimous approval from each member of the EU27. We can rescind the A50 notice unilaterally. That may (sorry) turn out to be an important distinction.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 18:54:11 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 18:54:11 GMT
The EU27 have already signposted that they would extend article 50 in the event of an election or referendum so it's up to the UK government.
Extending the Article 50 requires unanimous approval from each member of the EU27. We can rescind the A50 notice unilaterally. That may (sorry) turn out to be an important distinction.
Another unknown that leads on from that is the relative likelihoods of a majority for revoke or extend. I would think that revoke is politically more of a challenge and so less likely, at least at first. Extend then revoke might be a staged version of it, though. |
|
3,040 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 19:17:11 GMT
Post by crowblack on Dec 14, 2018 19:17:11 GMT
you have to join a Party, maybe at local level to start with Where I live, Labour is usually unopposed at local elections, but recently an independent stood on local issues and nearly won. We may see more of that - social media is allowing different methods of organising support. Most politically-tweety celebs are (judging by recent tweets) centrist types who voted Blair in the past and would probably be SDP if it still existed, or Lib Dem if they weren't regarded as a joke. The Guardian supported Lib Dem in the 2010 election, not Labour - well, that worked out well! They also gave Cameron a surprisingly fair wind, employing him as a columnist even before he was an MP and supporting him in the Tory leadership contest. |
|
2,342 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 20:42:53 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 14, 2018 20:42:53 GMT
How come Gary Lineker can advertise crisps when other BBC folk are not allowed to do adverts? Who can not advertise Lyn? |
|
2,342 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 20:45:37 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 14, 2018 20:45:37 GMT
The EU27 have already signposted that they would extend article 50 in the event of an election or referendum so it's up to the UK government.
Extending the Article 50 requires unanimous approval from each member of the EU27. We can rescind the A50 notice unilaterally. That may (sorry) turn out to be an important distinction.
EU would extend article 50, UK would have to pay for it mind |
|
952 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 14, 2018 21:47:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by vdcni on Dec 14, 2018 21:47:29 GMT
Our own residents? What a horrible choice of phrasing. As far as I'm concerned our own residents are all those legally residing here regardless of where they come from. If you mean people of British origin, then say so. And if that is the case, then what shameful treatment exactly affects them but not others? Issues with the NHS and the welfare state affect all residents no matter where they come from, issues with racism affect specific races and cultures whether the people who belong to those groups are British-born or not. I could go on, but I think the point is clear. If what you actually mean is some sort of concept of British jobs for British people or anything like that, then the simple answer to that is there are jobs there if people chose to do them, and the fact that people born abroad are doing a lot of the manual labour jobs is as much because some British people (and some non-British as well, to be fair) have decided that claiming benefits is easier than doing an honest day's work. Those people are the problem, not the victims. The victims are those who are contributing hugely to our society yet not even being guaranteed a right to continue to do so. There is nothing that can justify such discrimination as far as I'm concerned, and I can't see how anyone could possibly defend it. I echo @posterj 's question, what exactly do you mean by this? No it’s not a horrible choice of phrasing and it is this very attitude that made Brexit happen, well done. Then what did you actually mean? Try answering the question rather than dodging it. |
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 15, 2018 7:36:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 7:36:30 GMT
How come Gary Lineker can advertise crisps when other BBC folk are not allowed to do adverts? Contractural obligations? He was signed with Walkers before BBC. |
|
4,156 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 15, 2018 9:46:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by kathryn on Dec 15, 2018 9:46:31 GMT
Wouldn’t Lineker effectively be a freelancer? Not a member of BBC staff. That would allow him to do work for anyone else he wants to. It just so happens that he mainly works for the BBC.
|
|
999 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 15, 2018 11:31:39 GMT
via mobile
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 15, 2018 11:31:39 GMT
Freelancing is also one of the main reasons he's not bound by any rules regarding his airing personal political views, in case you caught any of the kerfuffle/furore/brouhaha recently. For ages there've been multiple dimwit comments in his twitter feed following any remotely political tweet, all saying "shut up and stick to football" and now we had another sports broadcaster saying it.
|
|
999 posts
|
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 15, 2018 11:34:58 GMT
How come Gary Lineker can advertise crisps when other BBC folk are not allowed to do adverts? Crunch question. The BBC are chippy about these things, but I think @remark is right and he had a contract in the bag already. kathryn too, that he is freelance allowing him to salt away as much cash as he likes. Cheesy answer, I know, but I like to think I know my onions. I'm here all week. So slow am I sometimes, I only got this on second reading. I was going to say it's a golden wonder it didn't take me longer but decided it'd be appallingly bad, so I won't. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 13:29:28 GMT
I'm going to have to skip this thread until you've all finished punning...
|
|
5,707 posts
|
Brexit
Dec 15, 2018 14:46:54 GMT
Post by lynette on Dec 15, 2018 14:46:54 GMT
Isn’t Clare Balding freelance? She works for the racing on channel 4 and the BBC. Where are her ads? 😂
|
|
2,763 posts
|
Post by n1david on Dec 15, 2018 14:48:28 GMT
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 15, 2018 16:27:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 16:27:15 GMT
Claire Balding might be the sort of no-nonsense woman we need to sort of Brexit!
With speaking out on political topics is Gary Lineker airing his views on Brexit any different to say Sir David Attenborough speaking out on say climate change. Although Sir David is of course in a different league to Gary!
A fair number of presenters write paper columns where they express views but they may be freelancers or if on Twitter they say "views expressed are their own" then this should stop conflict.
With Gary Lineker I can remember him playing and then going into the media and never knew what his political views were, maybe no-one asked him or he didn't feel the need to speak up. Someone of the same era Sir Ian Botham was known to be a Tory but he was strongly against going on any Rebel Tours to South Africa due to Apartheid. Maybe the rebel tour question brought his politics to the fore!
I'm sure a lot of us used to watch the late great Roy Castle on Recordbreakers with Norris McWhirter as his factual sidekick. I certainly had no idea that he was a very extreme Right Wing Campaigner. Likewise Ron Pickering who presented We Are the Champions was a very left wing campaigner and his family had actually fought against the fascists in Spanish Civil War.
|
|
