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Brexit
Jun 22, 2016 13:08:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 13:08:35 GMT
When I went onto the End of Act 1 Finale thread, at the bottom of the page was a "vote to leave" advert from UKIP!!! Can anyone just advertise on here?
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Brexit
Jun 22, 2016 13:19:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 13:19:47 GMT
Yes, but they're not paying to advertise on here, per se, they're just advertising generally. Your ads will often reflect what you've been looking at - I get work-related ones, theatre-related ones, and I've recently had both Leave and Remain ads. Sometimes someone odious will turn up, but it's nothing to do with anything TheatreBoard has done, and it's rarely anything that ProBoards has done either.
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Brexit
Jun 22, 2016 14:25:06 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jun 22, 2016 14:25:06 GMT
But the intelligence showed that probably he didn't. And Tony Blair manipulated the public access to the intelligence to pretend that it showed that there were WMDs. Another example of politicians lying and deceiving to influence decisionmaking. Well, this is exactly the problem. When we don't have solid facts, when the best you can say is 'probably', it allows people to pick and choose the evidence that suits their prejudices and ignore the rest. They don't even have to be intending to do that - confirmation bias means we all do it automatically, it's how the human brain deals with conflicting information. That's why we should all look very carefully at the sources that people base their assertions on when they're making arguments about big, emotive political issues. People don't even have to be intending to lie or deceive to be wrong, and to be misleading us. They can just be ignoring the evidence that contradicts their beliefs. And, of course, we should all try to stay open to the possibility that we're wrong, and ignoring information that doesn't support our beliefs. That is a great point on confirmation bias, which s affects peoples judgement, no matter how intelligent they are and how blatant the supporting evidence is against something, we are all guilty of it including myself. The weapons of mass destruction argument, was built around somones university dissertation, so therefore a poor reason to go to war. If this went to a referendum the chances are we would of voted not to go to war, which in hindsight would have been the correct decision, remember a million people marched against the war in Iraq, so therefore many many more would have been against it, at the time the war against Iraq was being justified as a war against 'terrorism'.
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Brexit
Jun 22, 2016 15:38:12 GMT
Post by The Matthew on Jun 22, 2016 15:38:12 GMT
That is a great point on confirmation bias, which s affects peoples judgement, no matter how intelligent they are and how blatant the supporting evidence is against something, we are all guilty of it including myself. Years ago, when shortwave radio was a thing, I always made a point of getting my news from a wide variety of different stations around the world. If countries like Argentina, China, the Czech Republic, Germany, the Netherlands, Romania, Russia and the USA were all saying much the same thing then I could be reasonably sure that it was true, with no picking and choosing of sources on my part. On top of that external broadcasters tended to be fairly neutral with their news anyway, as they knew their listeners would simply listen to a different station if there was too much bias. (The sole exception was Radio Pyongyang (North Korea), which proudly revelled in propaganda during its half-hour broadcasts devoted to the wonders of living under the Great Leader. Either they didn't care what people thought of them or they (correctly) assumed that people would listen in just for the novelty.) Unfortunately the Internet came along and the idea of broadcasting to the world faded out. The big advantage with shortwave was that you listened to whichever station was broadcasting at the time, so you ended up listening to news sources that would never have occurred to you otherwise. These days it's too easy to find the news sources that reflect what you want to hear, and most of those news sources gain nothing from being fair and balanced.
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Post by Michael on Jun 23, 2016 7:13:31 GMT
Anyone knows when the (preliminary?) results will be announced?
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Post by n1david on Jun 23, 2016 7:22:13 GMT
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Brexit
Jun 23, 2016 8:08:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by kathryn on Jun 23, 2016 8:08:21 GMT
It's going to be a long day.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 6:34:00 GMT
sh*t
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Post by firefingers on Jun 24, 2016 6:37:44 GMT
Nigel Farage: "We will have done it without having to fight, without a single bullet being fired."
What a vile excuse for a human being.
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Post by Michael on Jun 24, 2016 6:53:39 GMT
Nigel Farage: "We will have done it without having to fight, without a single bullet being fired." What a vile excuse for a human being. I always thought he'd be reason enough to vote "remain".
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Post by kathryn on Jun 24, 2016 7:30:01 GMT
Stop the world, I want to get off.
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 7:30:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 7:30:18 GMT
That's the end of the United Kingdom then. Boris for PM? Oh what a depressing thought.
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Post by Michael on Jun 24, 2016 7:35:39 GMT
That's the end of the United Kingdom then. Boris for PM? Oh what a depressing thought. Scotland becoming independent and Northern Ireland re-uniting with Ireland? That'd leave Wales and England. Wengland?
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 24, 2016 7:47:40 GMT
I feel like those fish at the end of Finding Nemo, where they've used plastic bags to escape from their fish tank to the ocean and are now bobbing in the water, still in the bags, thinking "Now what?"
The Leave campaign has nothing beyond vague assurances that everything will be wonderful. Yes, we won't have to pay money to the EU any more, but the EU didn't pile that money up and burn it. Most of it was used to fund projects that were to our benefit (and most of them right here) and now we'll have to fund those projects ourselves. (I remember someone who worked in transport infrastructure saying that the British government funds transport projects that are popular and the EU funds projects that are necessary.) Some of the money went on administration of those projects, but the need for that administration hasn't gone away. We'll still need to trade with the EU, and to get the same beneficial terms we have now we'll need to make more concessions, not fewer. The Leave campaign has promised that once we free ourselves from all these idiot foreigners who are either plotting against us or just too stupid to do anything right then everything will be rosy, but I'm struggling to see any reality behind those claims.
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Post by kathryn on Jun 24, 2016 8:07:55 GMT
Theme tune for the next decade or so:
People are going to lose things they didn't even realise they had.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 8:32:56 GMT
The remain campaign are just as much to blame. The whole thing has been awful. Childish attacks on the rival team, especially on boris during debates, threats of what may happen (like the leave campaign, no one knows). They didnt highlight the good the EU has done.
I voted remain but do feel the EU is heavily flawed and needs reform, so will be interesting to see how this plays out. Also suspect we wont be the last country to do this.
Sick of politics being left or right, both sides have valid points and there doesnt seem to be any middle ground and this is what happens when you ignore peoples concerns. Also the hatred for eachother, again from both sides, is disgusting.
At the momemt Im more concerned we now end up with Gove or Boris as PM
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 8:43:31 GMT
Post by CG on the loose on Jun 24, 2016 8:43:31 GMT
I feel like those fish at the end of Finding Nemo, where they've used plastic bags to escape from their fish tank to the ocean and are now bobbing in the water, still in the bags, thinking "Now what?" The Leave campaign has nothing beyond vague assurances that everything will be wonderful. Yes, we won't have to pay money to the EU any more, but the EU didn't pile that money up and burn it. Most of it was used to fund projects that were to our benefit (and most of them right here) and now we'll have to fund those projects ourselves. (I remember someone who worked in transport infrastructure saying that the British government funds transport projects that are popular and the EU funds projects that are necessary.) Some of the money went on administration of those projects, but the need for that administration hasn't gone away. We'll still need to trade with the EU, and to get the same beneficial terms we have now we'll need to make more concessions, not fewer. The Leave campaign has promised that once we free ourselves from all these idiot foreigners who are either plotting against us or just too stupid to do anything right then everything will be rosy, but I'm struggling to see any reality behind those claims. I can't bring myself to click 'like' in response to the above, but I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment.
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 24, 2016 8:56:11 GMT
I voted remain but do feel the EU is heavily flawed and needs reform, so will be interesting to see how this plays out. Also suspect we wont be the last country to do this. There is widespread dissatisfaction with the EU, which has pushed into areas that don't really concern it. In most cases that's simply been a matter of forcing countries to do things they'd have done anyway. For example, there are many consumer rights regulations that are based on EU directives, but those directives are eminently sensible and are things that most countries were already doing because they're sensible. All the EU did was harmonise things, but you have to question whether it needed to. It's a bit like a parent telling you to clean your room when you're already cleaning it: you know it needs to be done and that's why you're doing it, and you just want them to let you get on with the job. Right now I think the best hope for the UK is for a couple of other countries to leave (or come close to it) and trigger a division of the current system into a commerce section and a political section. I think most Britons would be happy to rejoin a commerce-only union given that only the most numbingly stupid person could be blind to the benefits we've already reaped from the past few decades, and the smaller political union could be left to get on with whatever it wants to do. The big question is whether we'd be allowed to rejoin, and I suspect that in the end an agreement would quietly be reached that would allow each side to pretend to have forced the other into submission.
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 9:06:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 9:06:05 GMT
I agree, and the commerce aspect is what it started out to be. I think Holland will probably be next and i hope our decision today will end up being a good thing and trigger the necessary changes.
The thing is with EU laws, yes many are a good thing, but no one knows for sure if they would have happened anyway with or withoat the EU
They need to stop having two locations for the EU to sit in for a start, complete waste of money. Like most government based organisations, they waste a lot of time and money on unimportant things and justifying their jobs.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 24, 2016 10:39:11 GMT
I voted remain but do feel the EU is heavily flawed and needs reform, so will be interesting to see how this plays out. Also suspect we wont be the last country to do this. Right now I think the best hope for the UK is for a couple of other countries to leave (or come close to it) and trigger a division of the current system into a commerce section and a political section. I think most Britons would be happy to rejoin a commerce-only union given that only the most numbingly stupid person could be blind to the benefits we've already reaped from the past few decades, and the smaller political union could be left to get on with whatever it wants to do. The big question is whether we'd be allowed to rejoin, and I suspect that in the end an agreement would quietly be reached that would allow each side to pretend to have forced the other into submission. Totally agree. And we need the EU to recognise what's happened reflects how millions of people feel about a political union brought about about by stealth (or so it seems) and instead of "punishing" countries who leave, work with them for the benefit of all of Europe.
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 12:44:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 12:44:18 GMT
Boris for PM? Oh what a depressing thought. Oh, I don't know. We might see the return of Latin being taught in classrooms. Which, ironically, would do wonders for our currently atrocious levels of foreign language learning...
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 13:08:30 GMT
Post by The Matthew on Jun 24, 2016 13:08:30 GMT
Boris for PM? Oh what a depressing thought. Oh, I don't know. We might see the return of Latin being taught in classrooms. A European language? In British schools? Not on his watch. (There's a part of me that's still expecting to find out that Boris the Mayor was all a hoax, and someone will tell me they can't believe I fell for it.)
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 24, 2016 13:14:39 GMT
Split to a new thread because the admin team feel it's inappropriate to continue political discussion in the original topic.
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Post by Hamilton Addict on Jun 24, 2016 15:32:13 GMT
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 24, 2016 15:35:42 GMT
I'm still taken aback at how civilised this discussion has been. When the first political posts appeared I had a sinking feeling because I was sure that within a couple of hours it would be a matter of "You know who else metabolised oxygen? Hitler!"
Discussion of musicals degenerates into a trading of insults and a political thread stays polite? This is just weird. It's almost tempting to start discussing religion. (No.)
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 15:41:16 GMT
Post by Jon on Jun 24, 2016 15:41:16 GMT
I agree, and the commerce aspect is what it started out to be. I think Holland will probably be next and i hope our decision today will end up being a good thing and trigger the necessary changes. I agonised over how to vote, and really wished there was a "third option" - to return to the EEC that came into being while I was at primary school, and about which I was fascinated. A trading community of similar countries? It all made so much sense (and I think I have the lovely 'education pack' they sent us, somewhere). Sadly, as a grown-up, with a micro-business myself... well, both me and those I do business with found that things were moving on - particularly in the last few years. The old EEC was still there, BUT a slew of totally unnecessary and obstructive stuff had been thrown on top, and keeps being thrown. That's agony when all you want to do is trade and are too small to matter to those setting the rules. It's been fascinating today to see that our stock market has actually come off better than others around the globe, and that the exchange rates are only back to what they were a while ago, not really through the floor. Personally, I'm pretty sure we won't be the only country who will be asked the question now... and oddly, I'm still not even sure we will end up leaving - leastways not in the way we think. Too many politicians in too many countries have too much interest in outcomes for the bleakest possibilities to become real. On happier notes, I hear that Mrs Merkel has regained consciousness, and that emergency supplies of Immodium have arrived in the Belgian capital... I imagine things like Freedom of movement within Europe will remain as well as the Common Travel Area within Ireland and the rest of the UK.
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Post by Michael on Jun 24, 2016 16:31:22 GMT
I agree, Jon. I'm still taken aback at how civilised this discussion has been. Yes, but if you remember, TheMatthew, we moderators do block anyone with a House of Commons IP address. ...and from the Reichstag as well.
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Post by Michael on Jun 24, 2016 16:37:52 GMT
I imagine things like Freedom of movement within Europe will remain as well as the Common Travel Area within Ireland and the rest of the UK. But wasn't Freedom of movement the first thing UKIP and the leave campaign wanted to abolish to stop the hordes of Eastern Europeans steal all the jobs from British citizens (without realising that they are mostly doing tho jobs no Brit wants to do)?
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Post by kathryn on Jun 24, 2016 17:07:16 GMT
This is the exact thing that worries a lot of people who voted Remain - that UKIP have fooled people into believing leaving the EU would reduce immigration and increase public spending, and that when people realise you can't actually have both of those things that their anger will not be directed at the politicians who lied to them, but the people who they were lying about.
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 17:20:26 GMT
Post by Hamilton Addict on Jun 24, 2016 17:20:26 GMT
Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin...
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