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Post by lynette on Jul 26, 2023 17:25:49 GMT
The only improvement that could have been made would be more of a nod to the unsavoury side of England fans during Southgate’s tenure. The rioting and violence of thousands who forced their way into Wembley for the Euro 2020 final, for example (I was there - it was appalling). Also the fact that while more level headed football fans totally acknowledge the progress made, even after the France defeat, he receives a huge amount of criticism and calls to go from people who despise him for his political and moral views as much as anything else. No, football fans who like winning don't like Southgate because he has an incredible track record of losing going back to 1996. After that he then lost the two major finals he reached as a player, one as captain. Then as England manager he has had a very strong squad at his disposal with players drawn from the best league in the world under the best club managers and he has had incredibly good luck with the opposition he has faced and the good fortune to effectively be the host nation of the 2021 Euros. And yet he always finds a way to lose. In the knock-out stages of the 2018 World Cup the first decent side he faced was Croatia and he managed to lose despite taking the lead and despite having a much stronger bench when it went to Extra Time. In the knock-out stages of the 2021 Euros he is lucky enough to play an even poxier side in the semi-finals, Denmark, and at home, and still can't beat them in normal time. Then facing a very average Italy side and despite again taking the lead he manages to lose a final at Wembley, despite again having a much stronger bench when it went to Extra Time. Then in the 2022 World Cup he finally faces a decent side earlier in the Quarter Finals and despite France missing key players they get him beat in normal time with that 36-year-old superstar of world football Olivier Giroud landing the killer blow. Some sportsmen are winners and some are losers. Southgate is a loser. He has always been a loser. But he has done a great PR job to convince the FA to continue to pay him £5 million a year to lose. It is a sign of the decline of our country and its spirit that we champion a guy for being nice despite him being the exact opposite of what is needed in his role. Because the purpose of sport is to win. And winners win and losers lose. That's the brute truth which a nice boy like James Graham can't or won't tell you. Have you seen the play? If you have, then I respectfully suggest you have missed the point. |
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Post by n1david on Jul 26, 2023 22:52:59 GMT
Wow. Given the passion in this thread I'm quite glad I'm Scottish. I remember Ally's Tartan Army in 1978 but since then I don't believe that football has been integrated with national identity. (I guess there have been other issues)
As for the play, Southgate was the first England manager that made me feel that England had changed its attitude to the rest of the world. And I think the play reflected that, the loss of arrogance and entitlement and a sense that England had no divine right to win, but had to deserve it. Whether that affected their performance is another discussion.
PS "cultural genocide"? From someone who only joined the board tonight? OK, welcome and thank you for your contribution.
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Post by wiggymess on Jul 26, 2023 23:07:28 GMT
Thought as much. Well then you're massively lost my friend. I study the history of football- to the extent that I regularly have articles published in specialist magazines as I said - and I know the effect the gentrification of the sport by people like Graham has had on the traditional support. I can sleep having not seen one of my favourite playwrights plays far easier than I could fearing I have in some capacity supported what I, and many others, believe to be cultural genocide even if others believe that to be an extreme view. Ah the classic "I haven't actually seen it but it's an act of cultural genocide committed by "Jamie" Graham - my favourite playwright who is also responsible for the gentrification of the sport I'm an expert in" argument. That seems... solid...? |
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Post by Nelly on Jul 26, 2023 23:17:49 GMT
I saw this tonight and thought I’d pop on here to give my thoughts. What I didn’t expect was to come on here and it resemble my Twitter feed (people mostly arguing about football)!
Anyway, I loved it. Such a great night out at the theatre and the portrayal of such familiar people to me, out of this world. They’d be stupid not to give this another run especially with the Euros next year.
So glad I caught this!
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Post by showgirl on Jul 27, 2023 3:37:23 GMT
And following n1david's comment, I'm glad I'm a fan of theatre, not football. I found yesterday's matinee riveting, very funny and at times quite suspenseful. Definitely destined to be one of the year's theatregoing highlights for me and again imo, possibly the best work James Graham has done yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 7:06:54 GMT
I study the history of football- to the extent that I regularly have articles published in specialist magazines as I said - and I know the effect the gentrification of the sport by people like Graham has had on the traditional support. I can sleep having not seen one of my favourite playwrights plays far easier than I could fearing I have in some capacity supported what I, and many others, believe to be cultural genocide even if others believe that to be an extreme view. Ah the classic "I haven't actually seen it but it's an act of cultural genocide committed by "Jamie" Graham - my favourite playwright who is also responsible for the gentrification of the sport I'm an expert in" argument. That seems... solid...? I didn't actually say Graham was personally responsible for the gentrification of football or the play is an act of cultural genocide only that I feared that I may be endorsing such acts if I attended so I haven't and won't which is my perogative. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 27, 2023 16:24:44 GMT
Posts from the last few hours have been removed. Firstly because we are way off topic, secondly because the thread had become incomprehensible. Sorry if your post has been caught in the cull.
Please could I ask that members use the quote feature judiciously. There is really no need to quote the previous post every time when the discussion is flowing in a continuous way. If you want to direct a comment at another member consider tagging instead of quoting, it’s usually not necessary to repeat everything they said. And if you can see that a previous post has messed up quotes PLEASE don’t quote it, because that results in post after post after post with the mess up repeated hence becoming impossible to follow.
Finally, this thread is to discuss the play. Not the state of English football generally. If you want to have that discussion please start a thread in General.
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Post by kathryn on Jul 27, 2023 22:04:36 GMT
As a non-football fan who has often been bemused by the expectations places on the England team (even *I* know that most star players in the top leagues are not English, and neither are most top managers - why on earth would anyone expect our National team to be the best in the world?!) I really enjoyed this play.
Was particularly impressed by how they developed the character of Harry Kane throughout the play, from what my football-loving friend assured me was a caricature to a fully-rounded person.
James Graham has never let me down. No matter whether I am interested in the topic of a play or not, he always makes it compelling.
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Post by mkb on Jul 29, 2023 11:35:00 GMT
I am pleased that some others have aired counter views, because Graham's narrative is a very one-sided interpretation of England's progress under Southgate, and one that doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
But there's no doubting he has written a very entertaining piece of theatre. Despite squirming at a huge amount of ridiculous dialogue that is there solely an an explainer to the audience, there is a lot of humour and some poignancy and some stirring themes. The excitement of the penalty shoot-outs is a far cry from the nerve-jangling reality, but they give a reasonable flavour of what it's like to be there.
Like others, I found Act 2 somewhat languid and lacking focus. I rather suspect Graham has been wanting to write this play for some years but has not had the (successful) ending he needed. Using the women's success instead and trying to make a point about that simply left me confused as to what he was trying to say about the burden of expectation and the state of the nation.
My view is that Graham is wholly wrong to interpret the lack of riots after failure in Qatar as some sort of progress. What actually happened was that people didn't care about Qatar; they were not invested in it. It was a sham and immoral World Cup that should never have happened.
This play is far from a great one, but it is populist, crowd-pleasing, soap opera. With some brilliant performances and a set that wonderfully captures the previous Wembley Stadium in its opening scene, this is good fun.
Four stars.
Act 1: 19:34-20:51
Act 2: 21:13-22:30
(The National are persisting in claiming the running time is 2:50. It is not.)
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Post by londonpostie on Jul 29, 2023 12:17:56 GMT
My view is that Graham is wholly wrong to interpret the lack of riots after failure in Qatar as some sort of progress. What actually happened was that people didn't care about Qatar; they were not invested in it. It was a sham and immoral World Cup that should never have happened.
I remember saying to a theatre friend who is also a councillor at Lambeth that the BLM parades/marches would fizzle out in 2 weeks time. They did.
Same with the idea of 'riots' after Qatar. Hugely unlikely to happen in downtown Brixton.
Reason? BLM street activity fizzled out the weekend the new Premier League football season started, it always was going to. Qatar took place in the middle of winter; very difficult to get alcohol-based unrest going in this climate outside the summer months.
If you have some grasp of the society (and how football sits in that society) these things are not difficult to understand. I can confirm Lambeth councillors are not among that group.
Graham is projecting his own agenda or hopes. There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic about England - which is what this play accesses (just), though the absence of alcohol-fuelled riots in winter isn't in the top 100.
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Post by vdcni on Jul 29, 2023 16:46:16 GMT
It's an enjoyable night out but it didn't really have any convincing things to say about the state of the nation. The only time the English team did break into that wider conversation was during the Euros and that was during the much weaker second act which didn't really make the most of the opportunity.
Lack of riots, agree that the 2022 World Cup was tainted and less prominent, also many of the worst fans have been sidelined by the more open, very anti racist focus of the current team but being in Winter rather than Summer likely had the biggest effect.
I don't think this was one of Graham's stronger efforts. Not as bad as Quiz but no This House.
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Post by lynette on Jul 29, 2023 17:15:40 GMT
I thought the message was that post Empire, post WWI and II, post the huge upswing in living standards and the cultural domination of the 60s ( ‘66 football win) , and now post brexit and everything else.. England should accept it isn’t Number One nation. Graham is addressing the residual ‘look at the red places on the world map in every classroom’ generation and perhaps that BBC Olympic game show, aren’t we wonderful thing and asking us to see that we are now diverse racially and ethnically and performing on most stages round about the middle of the table level. Sport does show this up. If anything, a bit ‘soft’; there was a bloke on the telly talking about the cricket saying of course it is the winning that matters. Well, of course, it is. Graham is trying to remove the entitlement from the England ethos.
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Post by Latecomer on Jul 29, 2023 18:45:51 GMT
I didn’t think this was about football at all. Or necessarily about the state of England today. It was about what stops us trying do do things….that fear of failure. As such it can apply to anything and anyone. So it’s about therapy really and understanding ourselves. And being kind to others and the beauty of being vulnerable and how your background can stop you achieving your full potential.
Like This House was about friendship across the class divide and honourable ways of living and how far we will go before we actually stand firm to a good way of living? Not actually about politics. .
I think Graham is a very clever man!
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Post by Rory on Jul 30, 2023 7:46:03 GMT
Rumours on another thread that this may be transferring to the Prince Edward.
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Post by Jon on Jul 30, 2023 8:31:18 GMT
Rumours on another thread that this may be transferring to the Prince Edward. If this turns out to be true, I will need to start buying lottery tickets! |
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Post by theatremiss on Jul 30, 2023 20:31:43 GMT
Rumours on another thread that this may be transferring to the Prince Edward. They’ll have to change the set I’d have thought |
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Post by barelyathletic on Jul 31, 2023 11:19:41 GMT
I saw this on Saturday and absolutely loved it. I'm not a huge football fan, only following the Euros and World Cup without a huge amount of knowledge (I can, to the surprise of some of my friends, explain the offside rule), but this was about so much more; masculinity, mental health, the pressure of dealing with success and failure, racism, politics, history, hope, the building of a 'band of brothers" and yes, "Dear England". It's beautifully staged and directed, wonderfully acted, richly funny and emotional. It has a lot to say about the state of our nation and is an absolute triumph for the National and everyone involved. One of the best things I've seen in ages and certainly now among my all-time favourites. If you haven't seen it, don't miss it when it returns next year.
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Post by n1david on Jul 31, 2023 14:42:03 GMT
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Post by thistimetomorrow on Aug 2, 2023 10:10:03 GMT
Really really enjoyed this. I have very very minimal football knowledge, basically only knew that England lost in the Euro Finals (I didn't know anything about the penalty curse, I had barely heard of half the footballers before, literally spent the interval googling which of them were real or made up lol), but this was very accessible with no background knowledge.
I wonder if any of the real counterparts have seen the show? I believe Gareth Southgate has been, but for the players, it must be very surreal to have a whole play made about you.
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Post by midge on Aug 2, 2023 17:05:12 GMT
Much like others, I was so pleasantly surprised by this. The performances were fantastic, and the staging was often very impressive. I sometimes find Graham's dialogue to be contrived and a tad overwritten, and this definitely had moments of that. The pacing was all over the place, but I enjoyed it as it reminded me of watching my beloved Tottenham Hotspur. I thought the impressions were hilarious, accurate and not as annoying as I was expecting.
With the recent discourse over Henderson joining Saudi Arabian club Al-Ettifaq, I thought the scene with Kane and the armband would have a bit more weight, but it really didn't. It felt shoe-horned in and had no real place in the narrative. Did it even mention it was a Pride armband for LGBT rights? I could be wrong, my attention did wane when I realised we were only going to see like 5 minutes of the last world cup.
Still, a solid show, nice to see lots of younger males in attendance seeing potentially their first piece of theatre.
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Post by lolasangel on Aug 2, 2023 17:26:11 GMT
Does anyone know why some mid Stalls seats are sold as ‘Very Restricted View’ on the website? They are £30 but seem quite central seats. I have spotted O25 and K34/35. Just wondering what the restriction is and how bad it really is.
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Post by fiyero on Aug 2, 2023 17:47:58 GMT
Does anyone know why some mid Stalls seats are sold as ‘Very Restricted View’ on the website? They are £30 but seem quite central seats. I have spotted O25 and K34/35. Just wondering what the restriction is and how bad it really is. For tonight? It’s a filmed performance so behind a camera I assume. |
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Post by theatremiss on Aug 2, 2023 17:51:30 GMT
Does anyone know why some mid Stalls seats are sold as ‘Very Restricted View’ on the website? They are £30 but seem quite central seats. I have spotted O25 and K34/35. Just wondering what the restriction is and how bad it really is. 2 days worth of filming I think |
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Post by theatremiss on Aug 4, 2023 22:57:10 GMT
Well as someone obsessed with this play, I made my 4th visit tonight. Although I got nothing for next week with today’s Fri Rush, I’ve not given up hope of a 5th visit.
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KP
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Post by KP on Aug 5, 2023 9:06:16 GMT
The remainder of this run is sold out but if anyone has recommendations on how to get a ticket to Thursday's performance (10 August) I would really appreciate it. My boyfriend is moving to the UK that day and I've always thought seeing this play would be the perfect way to kick off his life in England (he's a huge football fan and I am converting him to becoming a huge theatre fan). He's moving a few days earlier than planned so we actually have a chance to see it before it closes. We have one ticket but I need to find another. I am constantly refreshing the NT site hoping to get lucky. Do any of you have tips that could help me be successful - for example, are return tickets more likely to show up at certain times of day? Or a ticket for that night that you're not using? Thanks in advance for any guidance you can give me.
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