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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 14, 2016 20:19:24 GMT
I'm not sure I agree. I say this from a position of relative ignorance, but I often wonder if we romanticise ‘foreign theatre’. I haven’t been abroad in two years now, but whenever I go abroad I find it fascinating to look at the cinema listings. The last time I saw Paris, there were posters all over the place for ‘Un film de Ken Loach, scenario de Paul Laverty’ – Jimmy’s Hall, a film that made pennies at the box office and was treated as a footnote by a past-it leftie windbag by half the papers here, but represented the best of English auteur cinema by a rare double Palme d'Or winner (hooray!) when it played as a ‘foreign film’ – and posters all over the place for a sh*tty little French rom com that was so bad it never reached our shores but was clearly doing well over there.
Snip Nicholas, I think there's a clear distinction between playwriting, which has always been a British strength, and the creation of the actual theatrical event. Kane, Crimp etc. have long flown the flag and Macmillan, Stephens and such are continuing that. I'm afraid I don't rate Zeller, too much like hors d'oeuvres without the main meal I find (Steve's food metaphor is spreading!). Schimmelpfennig I quite like though. It's the director, the designer that are the primary movers there, and increasingly here. Writers such as Stephens succeed because they give space to the director, a number of plays giving no added authorial interpretation beyond the bare dialogue. They have also been successful because they have been able to harness those strengths of European theatre production. The populist theatre is, of course, the same. It's the Macdonalds of theatre, Manma Mia, Phantom etc., and musicals, which I consider as being separate (and something we only fitfully succeed in. Other countries have their dross but it is what travels that matters, McBurney, Mitchell, Donnellan, Rice and Goold (the last less so, apart from across the Atlantic) are our standard bearers. Respectively influenced by Lecoq, Bausch, Dodin, Staniewski and Lepage they have enriched our theatre and have become important exports for our theatre as much as the writers above. Without their international (and mostly European) influences British theatre production would be, as I stated, weaker and more parochial. This is even before I get to the newest work from young companies whose debt to German dramaturgy and theatre philosophy is highly prevalent. British strengths of acting and playwriting allied to the European theatre production makes our theatre as exciting as I can remember it. I hope it continues but the opportunities need to be there. Some excellent discussion from a couple of our heavyweight posters. Really are 'top table' these two.
What a shame this happened in the 'what narks me' thread.
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5,066 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 15, 2016 0:58:14 GMT
Jersey Boys is an easy day ticket, even 30 minutes before the curtain. Also one of the only shows that does Tuesday matinees, so for that and £20 -£25 it's a steal, I confess I don't love the show, but the book is real slick and The Jersey a boys catalogue is great. However I think it is amazing how they sing in a falsetto for 2:30hr, that is worth the admission alone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 4:40:38 GMT
- I hated War Horse.
- Beverley Knight is overrated.
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Post by emilyrose on Jun 15, 2016 8:15:41 GMT
Im sat scratching my head as to whether id written anything bad If that was your post at the top, I read it and didn't see anything wrong with it at all. I was quite confused the post on top of the page was taken away.
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1,583 posts
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Post by anita on Jun 15, 2016 9:18:47 GMT
I've seen "Jersey Boys" and enjoyed it but wouldn't go mad about it. I actually thought the film worked better.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 9:27:01 GMT
Cynthia Erivo is overrated who needs to tone down her diva antics There I said it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 9:27:58 GMT
I'm intrigued, I've never heard tell of any particular diva antics? Unless you're referring to her acting style, which I confess I haven't seen a lot of?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 11:39:55 GMT
I'm intrigued, I've never heard tell of any particular diva antics? Unless you're referring to her acting style, which I confess I haven't seen a lot of? I'm afraid to comment on my unpopular opinion now for fear of falling foul of the moderators again. Which is funny as this is supposed to be the unpopular opinion thread.... Although i'm laying claim to expressing an unpopular opinion so unpopular that needed to be reviewed and moderated
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 15, 2016 12:08:51 GMT
Cardinal, on the areas I vaguely know about I agree with you almost entirely, and on the others, as always, I bow to your extraordinary knowledge on this subject! As in other places (coughangelsinamericacough) it's wonderful to have people so knowledgeable share their expertise with the rest of us mere mortals. However, I still can’t agree with you that we’re years behind, and at the risk of bursting into a chorus of “I’d Like To Teach The World To Sing In Perfect Harmony” here’s why: Other countries have their dross but it is what travels that matters, McBurney, Mitchell, Donnellan, Rice and Goold (the last less so, apart from across the Atlantic) are our standard bearers. Respectively influenced by Lecoq, Bausch, Dodin, Staniewski and Lepage they have enriched our theatre and have become important exports for our theatre as much as the writers above. Without their international (and mostly European) influences British theatre production would be, as I stated, weaker and more parochial. It is what travels that matters. We get the best of foreign theatre, but it stops being foreign because it’s theatre. It’s live. It’s now. It’s here. I see foreign films, which are documents of foreign lives filmed elsewhere; I don’t see foreign theatre, because how can what’s happening within touching distance of me be foreign? So much travels to London – you mention Lepage, and you’ll be well aware that he’s here in a month’s time! We’re not years behind when we’re so receptive to the progressive present around the world. I don’t know what it’s like in Amsterdam or Berlin or Paris and whether the cultural exchange is equal there, but right now in London we get the best of European theatre – yeah, I’m jealous that I don’t see Complicite’s Beware of Pity or Toneelgroep’s Husbands and Wives, and after The Forbidden Zone I did expect more live streams, but we still get a lot, and it says a lot about the cultural of conversation we're in that Complicite are an English company premiering in Berlin and Husbands and Sons is an Australian/Dutch production of an American text. I don’t care if Europe is doing regietheater better than us, because I get the chance to see regietheater thanks to wonderful programming at the Barbican, now at the Young Vic, potentially at the new NT, a little at the BAC... As a theatregoer, not a theatremaker, I do feel London’s the greatest theatrical city in the world, not just for the theatre it makes, but for the theatre it takes in.
And on top of that, because we currently have a culture of cultural exchanges, of overseas talents coming here and English talents invading elsewhere, the only possible end result is a broader badinage of ideas and ideals, a larger pool of influences from which developing talents can steal, a greater exchange of philosophies of what theatre can be which promising but unmoulded minds can learn about and pick and choose from as they please. Paradoxically, I don’t think there’s a distinction between European and English theatre, but I clearly think there are massive cultural differences; what’s exciting about this is that we live at a moment where the communication’s great across Europe. Ideas from one culture will permeate another, or flat out play on their theatres full stop. How wonderful! As you say, without European influence English theatre would be far more parochial and far weaker, but (asking out of curiosity and ignorance) has there ever been a time with so many platforms, ever increasing, for international influence to make their mark in the UK? In another lifetime, young groups would have to learn from drama school, reading up, expensive travel and guesswork, but today young groups (I’d love to know which ones you’d single out, Cardinal) get to see so much as cultural theatre goes! It’s not a competition, it’s a dialogue, and never has the dialogue been more egalitarian.
I used to live in grotty digs at the Barbican. The theatre that took place five minutes from my front door was my theatre. That might be the RSC and Benedict Cumberbatch, or it might be Theatre De La Ville and Robert Wilson. That's what English theatre is to me - Theatre De La Ville and Robert Wilson. I'm a bit romantic here (or racist and stealing other cultures as my own), but sod it, we get wonderful work on our stages, and as far as I'm concerned when it's on our stages it's ours. I think we are behind in some fields of theatre, but ahead in others, but I don’t see that as an issue when tonight I can see Isabelle Huppert on one stage, a Greek company on another, Goold at the Almeida, Macmillan at the Wyndhams, The Flick at the National – and dare I say, where I can see Marianne Elliot, Phyllida Lloyd, John Tiffany and Julie Taymor in the West End too. It’s like being a kid in a candy store – it’s all there! And I’d fly the flag again for a) our talents like Longhurst and Elliot and McIntyre who deserve greater praise, and b) the shift in taste that’s made Young Vic, Almeida and Headlong transfers populist – I think it’s a wonderful time to be in London.
That went on a bit. I really only had one small point, that we’re lucky to get so much foreign theatre, that there’s a dialogue starting/continuing that can only be a progressive and good thing, and that I don’t like distinctions between here and there because I do think they don’t exist, and ultimately no-one’s years behind of anything, variety’s a great thing and what variety we have! It just turns out I love London. It’s easy to forget that sometimes, but blimey we’re lucky buggers!
THat's my unpopular opinion. London theatre isn't London theatre - it's mostly London theatre (much of which is populist, much of which is crap), but it's also Regional, Celtic, European, American, Global, and only moving in a direction of breadth. London is the greatest theatrical town (and thus the greatest town, what's more important than theatre?) in the world.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 12:10:17 GMT
Nicole Scherzinger in Cats was one of the greatest revivals of a character I have ever seen.
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Post by Jon on Jun 15, 2016 12:32:10 GMT
I'm afraid to comment on my unpopular opinion now for fear of falling foul of the moderators again. Which is funny as this is supposed to be the unpopular opinion thread.... There's "unpopular" and there's "actionable libel." It needed to checked where the line was being drawn.I don't think the original comment was that bad, I'm sure Parsley has said a lot worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 19:57:43 GMT
Cardinal, on the areas I vaguely know about I agree with you almost entirely, and on the others, as always, I bow to your extraordinary knowledge on this subject! As in other places (coughangelsinamericacough) it's wonderful to have people so knowledgeable share their expertise with the rest of us mere mortals. However, I still can’t agree with you that we’re years behind, and at the risk of bursting into a chorus of “I’d Like To Teach The World To Sing In Perfect Harmony” here’s why: Other countries have their dross but it is what travels that matters, McBurney, Mitchell, Donnellan, Rice and Goold (the last less so, apart from across the Atlantic) are our standard bearers. Respectively influenced by Lecoq, Bausch, Dodin, Staniewski and Lepage they have enriched our theatre and have become important exports for our theatre as much as the writers above. Without their international (and mostly European) influences British theatre production would be, as I stated, weaker and more parochial. It is what travels that matters. We get the best of foreign theatre, but it stops being foreign because it’s theatre. It’s live. It’s now. It’s here. I see foreign films, which are documents of foreign lives filmed elsewhere; I don’t see foreign theatre, because how can what’s happening within touching distance of me be foreign? So much travels to London – you mention Lepage, and you’ll be well aware that he’s here in a month’s time!
Snip Nicholas, we're observing the same thing I think, albeit from a slightly different angle. I'm very internatiionalist in outlook also, with the caveat that different environments promote a different emphasis. I don't think that most of the audience would perceive anything that visits our theatres as automatically ours, however, unless it is cast with predominantly British actors, as with A View From the Bridge or the upcoming Hedda Gabler. Old habits die hard. We aren't that behind now I feel, mainly because of the recent explosion of international theatre and theatremakers visiting these shores. Since Brook however, how much have we led rather than followed? I can't think of a similar name between him and now, and he had to go to France to find a culture conducive to his work. The coming generations I think will cite McBurney at the very least in the same breath as other innovators however, breaking into that select group (he's already helmed the Avignon festival). By the way, Toneelgroep Amsterdam and the Schaubuhne among others have English surtitled performances. i haven't availed myself of them yet but hope to. You ask about years past and cultural change - nothing on this scale but the Berliner Ensemble visit to London in the late fifties had a dramatic effect, particularly on the Royal Court and through Joan Littlewood to the Theatre Workshop. In the late sixties I'm sure there were International Theatre Seasons but I haven't got my Theatre World annuals to check exactly what. One I do know was influential was a Roundhouse production around 1970 of Ariane Mnouchkine's French Revolution spectacle '1789'. From the eighties on with LIFT, BITE, the International Mime Festival etc., things have just blossomed. On your other question about young British companies I very much rate Barrel Organ with their resident playwright Lulu Raczka. Longhurst and Mcintyre as good young directors, yes (Marianne Elliot is about my age so I think she's already there in the pantheon!) but also Hill-Gibbins the Aussies Stone and Andrews etc., we are so blessed with so many interesting directors and long may that continue.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 21:23:51 GMT
Longhurst and Mcintyre as good young directors, yes (Marianne Elliot is about my age so I think she's already there in the pantheon!) but also Hill-Gibbins the Aussies Stone and Andrews etc., we are so blessed with so many interesting directors and long may that continue. Do you have any idea what Amadeus will be like, with Michael Longhurst and Chloe Lamford? Will the comfortable regulars at the NT even notice or be aware of its essential qualities? Depends what they do, Shaffer was notorious for stuffing plays with authorial staging suggestions so how much freedom will they have or be given?
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Post by horton on Jun 16, 2016 6:29:56 GMT
I'm not sure he was "notorious". In several cases the script, published after the premiere, acknowledged that stage directions were added to the published text after the play had opened, ie the directors had contributed to the process and Shaffer was merely recording their concepts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 7:56:08 GMT
Besides which, don't directors usually take stage directions to be serving suggestions rather than set-in-stone laws anyway? I'm sure I've even heard tell of rehearsal scripts being handed out to cast with all (or at least most, I suppose entrances and exits have their uses) stage directions removed so they can approach the play in the same way they approach any other play.
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Post by mallardo on Jun 16, 2016 9:03:18 GMT
It was always explained to me that the difference between writing a movie and writing a play is that for a movie script you'll be paid more but everything you write will be changed whereas for a play you'll make no money but your text is sacred. Seems that's not so much the case any more. The author's stage directions are every bit as crucial to him/her as his/her dialogue. For a "director" to simply discard them is, well, sacrilege.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 9:46:13 GMT
It was always explained to me that the difference between writing a movie and writing a play is that for a movie script you'll be paid more but everything you write will be changed whereas for a play you'll make no money but your text is sacred. Seems that's not so much the case any more. The author's stage directions are every bit as crucial to him/her as his/her dialogue. For a "director" to simply discard them is, well, sacrilege. It's sad and true. Someone-one of those 'fresh out of a degree so knows everything' types a few years ago declared to me that as a playwright it wasn't "a writer's place" to put in stage directions. Which may indeed be the thinking now, but as Mallardo says it wasn't always that way-quite the opposite. Which is a shame in my opinion, I'm all for collaboration on new work but for directors to disregard seems to me a diservice to the work of playwrights.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 9:54:36 GMT
I agree that the author's stage directions are a crucial part of their text. But that does NOT mean that they must be staged!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 9:57:04 GMT
I mean, if you look at Shakespeare, and if you look at a lot of new plays, stage directions are largely kept to a minimum anyway, and the playwright only puts them in if they're basically essential (like enter, exit, alarums, punches someone, whatever). You need to leave a certain degree of freedom to the directors and the actors, otherwise why would you be writing a play rather than directing a film?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 10:04:35 GMT
I agree that the author's stage directions are a crucial part of their text. But that does NOT mean that they must be staged! I think that's what I meant in terms of collaboration in terms of new work- directors taking it into consideration to figure out the writer's intent, but not to the letter. A kind of middle ground!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 10:05:59 GMT
There is widespread misunderstanding of the role of writers, even amongst other theatre workers. As an example, Lucy Kirkwood tells the story of how she wrote the text for a piece produced by Lost Dog dance company and was afterwards quizzically approached by many people who "should have known better" asking her what exactly she contributed. As she says, her text begins with two solid pages of stage directions...
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Post by mallardo on Jun 16, 2016 10:21:29 GMT
It's not an either/or issue. Clearly some stage directions are more crucial than others. When an author describes a room the description need not be rigidly adhered to except where the set contributes to the plot - but if even that direction is ignored, as is often the case, then different action is required and we depart from the author's plan for the play.
I'm not against interpretation. I am very much against the primacy of interpretation over creation. The play text comes first and its interpretation comes very much second. But we are seeing arguments made here that this should not be the case, that the director should have every right to impose his/her vision on a play in complete disregard to the author's clear intentions.
Interpreting a play is much easier than writing one. Let some of these auteur/poseur directors face the dreaded blank page and see how they get on.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 10:46:34 GMT
I would think that the common view is that a text (or more than one) is one element in the creation of a piece of theatre. To me, any talk of a text as "the play" is assigning to it a primacy which it should not have because it makes it sound as if the text is the real thing and the production is a manifestation of it. I would say that it is the piece of theatre that is being created, not that the text is being interpreted. There may be a pre-existing text or the text may be written or revised in the course of creating the production but the text should not dictate anything. However, it will still exist afterwards, to be read and perhaps used in future theatre productions.
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Post by lynette on Jun 16, 2016 10:59:27 GMT
I think many playwrights ( the word indicates the crafting) see their work clearly on the stage and their directions should be taken into account. Not necessarily followed to the letter but definitely considered. It is interesting how elastic and squashy Shakespeare's texts are without cutting too much or changing them. We now have women playing kings and you name the era or context, it can be done. Shakespeare put some of his directions in the text, like when Iago describes D and C paddling palms. Would love to have been at the rehearsals. Pinter's pauses are surely sacrosanct and all those texts that say 'beat'....frankly I never understood that. But writers do slave over texts. As they should.
Collaborations are a different kettle of fish.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 11:03:50 GMT
all those texts that say 'beat'....frankly I never understood that. Either a point to breathe or to strike something?
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