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Post by crowblack on Aug 15, 2018 16:00:34 GMT
David Hyde Pierce as Niles Crane in "Frasier" He wasn't officially 'out' at the time, though. I mean, I think everyone wth functioning senses knew it, but he didn't come out till (googles it) 2007. Btw, Frasier always reminds me of Hitchcock's 'Rope' - two snooty, effete Ivy League types in suits, apartment with big rear window, baby grand...
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Post by hulmeman on Aug 15, 2018 16:02:56 GMT
What actors do is act. They portray people who are not themselves, They may use something of themselves or their life experience to act, but they are acting a part or character.
Do you have to be a murderer to play a murderer?
The history of television is filled with straight men plying gay characters. Look at John Inman playing Mr Humphreys. My mum told me he had a wife and kids at home.
Well that's the level of seriousness we should apply to this non-story!
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Post by kathryn on Aug 15, 2018 16:07:03 GMT
He was actually rather good in The Happy Prince and The Judas Kiss! Apologies - just my personal opinion. I haven’t seen either of the two titles you mention but perhaps I will look into them The Judas Kiss was a play, so sadly you missed that, but do track down The Happy Prince when it comes to DVD/streaming.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 16:24:47 GMT
Oooh, Declan Bennett in 'EastEnders'
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 17:43:03 GMT
I mean, Disney themselves have hired openly gay actors to play straight characters recently.
Luke Evans played Gaston in the live action Beauty and the Beast. Ben Whishaw is playing a heterosexual character in Mary Poppins Returns.
So yeah I struggle to get up in arms about this. It'd be another thing if it was a studio that ignores the existence of gay actors.
I understand the wariness people have in regards to the character description, but I agree with the point that The Sun is hardly the most reliable source of film news. Character descriptions and plot details often end up being wrong, even when coming from more professional sources.
I'm never a fan of this criticism to be honest. Openly gay or bisexual actors should get more opportunities to play characters of all orientations, absolutely. It would be naive to suggest that Hollywood doesn't ever turn their nose up at these actors purely because of their sexuality. However, sexual orientation is not something that is visible and in my opinion is not something that is anyone else's business, unless someone wants it to be. Yes Jack Whitehall has had girlfriends, but so have plenty of gay and bisexual men. Even if he openly stated he was straight, only he himself knows for a fact whether that is true or not.
This criticism has also been aimed (albeit to a lesser extent) to young up and coming actors that have played gay and bisexual such as Ashton Sanders, Timothée Chalamet and Lucas Hedges. All of these actors were cast in their roles before they were even 20 and when little-to-nothing was known about their personal lives (in fact that is still the case for all of them). Firstly it's surely wrong to assume they are all straight when as far as I am aware, none of them have ever stated that to be case. Secondly, how on earth would it ever be appropriate for a director to ask an unknown or up-and-coming actor what their sexuality is? Especially when they're a teenager and may not have even figured it out themselves yet?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 17:52:33 GMT
Luke Evans played Gaston in the live action Beauty and the Beast. Is Luke Evans back out again? He's been in and out of that closet so often like he's starring in 'The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe'. I can't keep up! Edit: Oh yah, he's definitely back out. https://www.instagram.com/p/BmGagLuB2yR
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 18:38:30 GMT
And let’s not forget Rupert Everett in nearly everything he’s in (in spite of him playing every character terribly). He was actually rather good in The Happy Prince and The Judas Kiss! Yes, he was great in Happy Prince and I seem to recall that he was quite brilliant in Tennessee Williams’ The Milk Train Doesn’t Stop Here Anymore many moons ago.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 15, 2018 18:43:30 GMT
Luke Evans played Gaston in the live action Beauty and the Beast. Is Luke Evans back out again? He's been in and out of that closet so often like he's starring in 'The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe'. I can't keep up! Edit: Oh yah, he's definitely back out. https://www.instagram.com/p/BmGagLuB2yR Lol. I think that the actual answer to that is that he is in ‘the glass closet’ - he’s not hiding it from the people who know, but he carefully doesn’t mention it to anyone who doesn’t bring it up first. And then there’s interviews like this, where he might have passed for straight if the interviewer wasn’t already in the know: www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/luke-evans-beauty-and-the-beast
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 16, 2018 12:14:40 GMT
I think it used to be that nobody cared. There have always been straight and gay performers and they've always played straight and gay roles, and they just got on with it and nobody took any notice. And then suddenly it became a matter of Earth-shattering importance to know where everyone sticks their bits. I don't get it.
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Post by joem on Aug 16, 2018 12:49:23 GMT
I think it used to be that nobody cared. There have always been straight and gay performers and they've always played straight and gay roles, and they just got on with it and nobody took any notice. And then suddenly it became a matter of Earth-shattering importance to know where everyone sticks their bits. I don't get it. I think it's disgraceful but possibly a spill-over from other debates which have been going on in other areas such as race and gender - the kind of person who thinks you need to be a particular race or gender to write a part is logically going to extend this to sexuality. Using the cover of diversity a new kind of bigoted prig is emerging who, despite the rhetoric, doesn't actually welcome an integrated society but promotes separation and exclusion.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 16, 2018 13:03:30 GMT
Sort of as an aside, but is it just me who really, really doesn't care what an actor's personal sexuality is anyway? Provided they don't mess about with kids or anyone vulnerable, and treat others with respect, I don't even think about it. I really don't care as long as everyone is adult and consenting. Makes nowt difference to me. But I do think the way that the media and wider society reacts to it is really interesting from a sociological perspective - we're at such a funny place right now, there's a real transition that has happened in the last decade, legally and socially.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 13:04:37 GMT
Every time an actor makes a public announcement about their sexuality, there's always an almost-immediate wave of people going "so what? Who cares? It's their personal business, it doesn't matter one jot to me". Which, hey, that's really great for you, and no one's saying that *you* have to care. But there are kids out there who don't know who they are, or they do know who they are but they're terrified they're the only ones, and for them, it can be extremely validating and life-affirming to know that there are other people out there going through the same things but still living their lives, even big famous movie stars. Maybe it doesn't matter to you that Brendon Urie is pansexual or Amandla Stenberg is non-binary, in which case feel free to join me in going about your day, but there are people out there to whom it *does* matter. Knowing that there are public figures out there with less traditional gender identities or sexualities who use their public platform to talk candidly about their experiences genuinely *helps* them. It seems really... INWARD-looking to say that these things don't matter to you therefore they don't matter at all therefore it's ridiculous that people are talking about these things so publicly. If an actor (or whoever) being public about their sexuality doesn't matter to *you* then it's not *you* they're doing it for. Leave them be, move on, and please stop pretending that it doesn't matter *at all*.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 16, 2018 13:06:26 GMT
I think it used to be that nobody cared. There have always been straight and gay performers and they've always played straight and gay roles, and they just got on with it and nobody took any notice. And then suddenly it became a matter of Earth-shattering importance to know where everyone sticks their bits. I don't get it. It's not true that nobody cared - nobody cared as long as everybody publicly presented themselves as straight, of course, but people very much cared if you didn't. And there are definitely regions of the world where that is still true.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 14:17:27 GMT
I think it used to be that nobody cared. There have always been straight and gay performers and they've always played straight and gay roles, and they just got on with it and nobody took any notice. And then suddenly it became a matter of Earth-shattering importance to know where everyone sticks their bits. I don't get it. It's not true that nobody cared - nobody cared as long as everybody publicly presented themselves as straight, of course, but people very much cared if you didn't. And there are definitely regions of the world where that is still true. I'm glad you said it before I had to ride in waving a rainbow flag on a Unicorn (nothing to do with this thread that's just Thursday) But quite. 'Nobody cared' as long as you kept it not only behind closed doors, but under lock and key and never alluded to it in public. People certainly cared Rock Hudson was gay. People certainly cared Ellen was gay. And many a big Hollywood star today has spent a lot of money on lawyers and non disclosure agreements to keep their sexuality a secret. Because studios care, right wing conservative across the globe agree. And many countries as a rule across the world agree. On the flip side it matters that people are 'visibly gay' to use an awful phrase, because kids need people like them to look up to. Hell adults need people like them to look up to.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 16, 2018 15:12:13 GMT
Also, it's nobody's business where anybody sticks their bits and should have no impact on anyone's ability to perform a role, and yet there's an entire celebrity gossip industry that relies on the fact that people *do* care, and an entire PR industry based on the fact that people's opinions about a performer's personal life affects how they perceive them on screen, even if they're presenting themselves as straight.
I mean, just look at Tom Cruise.
I'm sure we all think that it's bullsh*t, really, but it's a multi-million dollar industry that wouldn't exist if people *truly* didn't care.
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Post by crowblack on Aug 16, 2018 15:18:33 GMT
On a related point, though, there is that lovely 'honeymoon' period when you see a new actor in their first major role and you don't know a single thing about them, and they can just 'be' that character with no baggage either from other roles, social media or the tabloid press.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 16, 2018 15:28:51 GMT
Yes - and it is one of the reasons why theatre-going can be such a joy - you often catch people before anyone else has heard about them, and certainly before anyone has a clue about their private life!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 15:37:00 GMT
Absolutely. I’d also like to say an affirming “yes” to absolutely everything commented on by @emicardiff recently - all of the yeses.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 15:38:43 GMT
Absolutely. I’d also like to say an affirming “yes” to absolutely everything commented on by @emicardiff recently - all of the yeses. It's the Unicorn thing in particular that swung it isn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 15:44:29 GMT
Absolutely. I’d also like to say an affirming “yes” to absolutely everything commented on by @emicardiff recently - all of the yeses. It's the Unicorn thing in particular that swung it isn't it? Definitely! In the more metaphorical sense it can be daunting to call out or question others’ points of view at the risk of becoming a bore or a wannabe activist. I’m still firmly of the belief that these conversations need to be had and it’s refreshing to see I’m not the only one
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 15:49:37 GMT
It's the Unicorn thing in particular that swung it isn't it? Definitely! In the more metaphorical sense it can be daunting to call out or question others’ points of view at the risk of becoming a bore or a wannabe activist. I’m still firmly of the belief that these conversations need to be had and it’s refreshing to see I’m not the only one Oh indeed, indeed. Going back to my point of gay kids want gay actors to be visible, I keep hearing the bit of Neil Patrick Harris' iconic Tony's opening, the bit where he goes 'We WERE that kid' if you struggle to understand why gay kids (and adults) need to see people like them, that's a good paralell: you live in nowheresville Norfolk or Iowa and you suddenly realise there's other people like you in the world. (also to stretch it further, that if Neil Patrick Harris can play a central part in a long running sitcom, wear drag in Hedwig and post cute Instagram pictures of his kids....well that's something pretty nice to look up to as a package....Barney Stinson snigger at package aside)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 17:53:13 GMT
I love to know who the gayers are in Hollywood. I like to know who I have a chance with.
And whose wife I need to avoid. Learn that the hard way.
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Post by n1david on Aug 17, 2018 8:36:51 GMT
Which, hey, that's really great for you, and no one's saying that *you* have to care. But there are kids out there who don't know who they are, or they do know who they are but they're terrified they're the only ones, and for them, it can be extremely validating and life-affirming to know that there are other people out there going through the same things but still living their lives That's not a perspective I'd even considered, @baemax. Very valid and helpful. I guess it comes down to whether someone is the type who does see actors or anyone in the public eye as role models, something I was never susceptible to. For those who are, it's useful, I agree. If you’re an aspiring gay actor, considering whether to come out, I’d say the likes of Sir Ian McKellen or Sir Derek Jacobi would be fine role models.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2018 8:46:36 GMT
Which, hey, that's really great for you, and no one's saying that *you* have to care. But there are kids out there who don't know who they are, or they do know who they are but they're terrified they're the only ones, and for them, it can be extremely validating and life-affirming to know that there are other people out there going through the same things but still living their lives That's not a perspective I'd even considered, @baemax . Very valid and helpful. I guess it comes down to whether someone is the type who does see actors or anyone in the public eye as role models, something I was never susceptible to. For those who are, it's useful, I agree. That actually sounds really, I don't know condescending? or dismissive? why shouldn't actors be role models? Why shouldn't sports stars? And as @baemax was saying, either way it's a really affirming thing to see 'someone like you' in the public eye. Maybe (if I may) as a straight white male, that's not something you consider? But women, people of colour and LGBT people consider every day in various incarnations. I also don't personally think looking up to someone who has been successful in their chosen field is something to look down on, or be dismissive of. I see actors in the capacity of 'role models' the same way I do people who have been successful in academia- someone to look at and say 'hey they achieved what they set out to do in life maybe I can too' and if they are 'like me' in other ways, then yes, that helps.
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Post by vdcni on Aug 17, 2018 14:43:41 GMT
Also it's just as much about representation and visibility as anything.
When growing up as a gay teenager in the 90's it wasn't that I viewed gay actors, sports people etc as role models it was just heartening to see they existed. When you go through life seeing no representations of anyone like you then you can't imagine the relief you feel seeing someone you can relate to for that part of your life.
And in those days it was often the case that you knew something was different but didn't really understand what that was and you had no one to talk to about it. I mean the first time I ever spoke to someone about being gay was at 19 on my first ever date - at last I didn't have to keep everything inside anymore. Things have moved on but I doubt that feeling has gone away entirely.
It can be as simple as understanding that Martina Navratilova was a lesbian and what that meant to seeing Tim & Gavin on the Brittas Empire live as a couple to watching late night Channel 4 and realising what sex with another man actually looked like.
I know being a teenager is a confusing time for everyone but when you can't even see what your life could potentially look like and don't have anyone who you can talk to it becomes much harder.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2018 16:00:19 GMT
I don't get the fuss about casting a straight person to play a gay part or vice versa. Lots of actors or actresses have played roles opposite to their sexuality and won awards for it. An actor's sexuality is their own business anyway.
Very good point above by Vdcni about Tim and Gavin in the Brittas Empire where Gordon Brittas was oblivious to their relationship.
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