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Post by viserys on Jun 13, 2017 19:35:14 GMT
It's easy to dismiss this show as a "white boy teen angst story" but a great example of something we've seen a lot of times before become inherently a bad thing? I think where Evan Hansen fails for me is to make that particular leap from "being for a target group" (white suburban teens) to "having general appeal". I'm not sure how to explain that. But to use Hamilton as an example: I am a bland white middle European woman with no history of immigration and I'm quite comfortably off job-wise and money-wise. So the whole "penniless immigrant with a dream" angle doesn't DIRECTLY appeal to me. But Hamilton's story still grips me and I get completely drawn in by these young men and their dream of an independent country and getting things done (and how this refects today's immigration story). Another non-theatre example: I just binge-watched the new season of OITNB, which is one of my all-time favorite shows ever. And while the lives of the black girls or Latina girls are really rather alien to me, I care about them and their fates and their concerns very much. And to move to the subject of mental health, I also cared a lot about Christopher in "Curious Incident", if you want to use that as a benchmark, but I feel Christopher had much bigger obstacles to overcome than Evan Hansen. The writers just don't manage to make me REALLY care for him. All I see is a well-off white suburban boy with some issues, who constructs a huge heap of BS and gets entangled in his own web of deception. I hear songs like "Waving through a window" or "You will be found" and I know what they're trying to say, but they just don't move me. I find the music bland and the lyrics not very good. On the other side, "Playing Nancy" from Groundhog Day makes me tear up, because, despite being a RL opposite of that kind of girl, the lyrics catch their dilemma in today's world perfectly and move me. And "You will be found" in its choral style always reminds me a little of "Will I?" from Rent, which such a beautifully written and incredibly sad haunting song about living with AIDS, while "You will be found" is just... saccharine and doesn't move me at all, because it doesn't express reality. No song in that show manages - for me- to capture the incredible loneliness and sense of alienation today's world can bring - and does bring. Sure, that's just my opinion and if young people (or even older people) find something in Evan that appeals to them and moves them, that's fine with me. But I sort of agree with Ali, that as it stands now, DEH is for me the fairly unappealing tale of "yet another middle class white teenager with problems". Incidentally I feel the same about the much talked-about "13 Reasons Why" on Netflix. To be fair, I'm only two episodes in, but I'm already so bored by it all. The lead guy also reminds me A LOT of Evan Hansen, I'm sure he could easily play him too. I would agree with you martello736 that it's harder for DEH right now, when shows like Hamilton and Comet have pushed the boundaries for musical theatre and make something seen "a hundred times before" blander, but if a show is really good, it will grip me even in a traditional style as Groundhog Day has done. And it's not like I couldn't be bothered to care for "white middle-class teens" (I was one myself once!) - I think Spring Awakening is very overwrought in some of its aspects, but there are some incredibly beautiful and sad songs in it, that really move me and make me feel for those teens and their problems, even if it's something seemingly banal like Moritz' problems at school. Sorry this has been super long, but I've wanted to comment on this thread for a while and now the dam burst
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 20:09:38 GMT
I won't quote you viserys because I'm not quite sure exactly which part I'm replying to and quoting the whole thing would make this response seem a mile long I see what you're saying and I do think the plot is odd to say the least. I think it's possible to relate to the struggles of the women on OITNB because even though I wouldn't imagine it corresponds much with anything any of us have been through, we can accept that someone else probably has been through it so we can empathise during all of the relevant moments. I don't think anyone has ever had to pretend to be best friends with a dead teenager and fashion an ever more elaborate web of lies to cover their own backside and asking us to believe it, or more importantly, care about it, is a stretch too far. This is in itself quite jarring, and maybe the reason I quite like the show is because I ignore the majority of the plot to focus on the overarching message. You Will Be Found is a moving and impactful song but it isn't helped by the utter nonsense that precedes it. I think you could have the exact same lyrics but with the hour before it filled with a slightly better written story about mental health and everyone would be crying their eyes out. Actually putting it into words, I think it's a weak book that lets the show down, which is a shame because all of the other elements of Dear Evan Hansen are very strong. The soundtrack is very catchy and admittedly I've only ever seen a bootleg of the show but Ben Platt does very well to bring all of the elements together to create something special. We care about Ben, therefore we're more willing to put aside the sheer implausibility of the narrative, and make a real effort to be invested in his story. This is almost definitely going to start a fight somewhere, so I apologise in advance (and this isn't aimed at you viserys), but I hear a lot of work dismissed as "white fiction", "a white story", "white nonsense" and things like that. Growing up, my idols included the likes of Audra McDonald, Amber Riley, Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, and later on Cynthia Erivo, Tyrone Huntley, Rodney Earl Clarke, Marisha Wallace and Adrienne Warren. I as a white person, can relate to and enjoy the work of performers of different ethnicities to myself, as I'm sure anyone can, so why have we developed the notion that if there is a really really good piece of work created by or starring a white person, that a person of colour or an Asian person would be able to get nothing from it?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 20:48:22 GMT
Interrupting all of your well thought out and well written posts to be silly and ask that if we're going to have a mental health musical that wont sell in London, can it at least be the really good one?
Yes I know about the rights issue. BUT COME ON. I need to see this show live again.
Also Tom Kitt must be fuming at how much 'Good For You' sounds like this.
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Post by singularsensation10 on Jun 13, 2017 21:46:23 GMT
Interrupting all of your well thought out and well written posts to be silly and ask that if we're going to have a mental health musical that wont sell in London, can it at least be the really good one? Yes I know about the rights issue. BUT COME ON. I need to see this show live again. I'm with you snutte! In response to the other posts - I thought theatre was an opportunity to see other points of view, other stories, other people. How popular is Les Mis? It's been open for years - I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that most of the people in the audience have never been a peasant in the French Revolution.... I don't think success of a show is based on how relatable a character is. I do agree with Martello - it was the book that let DEH down. I love the score, I loved the cast (and I saw it without Ben!) - but I left feeling dissatisfied and like I needed more, and it wasn't until after I'd had a chance to reflect on it that I realised the book was lacklustre. I don't think it's do with the story / plot, it's to do with the actual words said between the songs. The exchanges between the characters didn't feel strong enough considering the weight of the story.
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Post by ali973 on Jun 14, 2017 4:18:33 GMT
Just to go on a wee bit of a tangent, but Broadway will be packed with high school musicals by 2018:
-Dear Evan Hansen -The Prom -Mean Girls -17 Again
Of course not all of them might make it, but the possibility is looming.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 14, 2017 20:46:31 GMT
The show, for me, falls down because it demands empathy for someone who, by their actions, isn't deserving of it. American theatre, at its best, has always been equivocal but this is just manipulative and self pitying.
This will likely be an unpopular view but I find it to be cynically written and aggressive in its pushing for the audience to feel and cry. If you don't buy into that, the show is just a big nothing. Another show, also with a younger cast, like Spring Awakening has a more sophisticated score, a greater theatricality and empathy that is better earned for its not being foisted on the audience.
It is, for me, the worst of American theatre yet look on the American equivalents to here and you will read posts comparing it favourably to Hamilton.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2017 21:14:46 GMT
The show, for me, falls down because it demands empathy for someone who, by their actions, isn't deserving of it. American theatre, at its best, has always been equivocal but this is just manipulative and self pitying. This will likely be an unpopular view but I find it to be cynically written and aggressive in its pushing for the audience to feel and cry. If you don't buy into that, the show is just a big nothing. Another show, also with a younger cast, like Spring Awakening has a more sophisticated score, a greater theatricality and empathy that is better earned for its not being foisted on the audience. It is, for me, the worst of American theatre yet look on the American equivalents to here and you will read posts comparing it favourably to Hamilton. Yeah. Nothing about it feels genuine to me. There's an element of emotional manipulation in almost every Broadway musical but with this one it almost seems to be the purpose of the show. I mean, the most heartbreaking thing that happens in the show should be Connor's suicide but we never even find out why he kills himself and it's just used as a plot device to prop up how hard life is for Evan. It grosses me out. I think teens buy into this show really easily because most teenagers think they're special and are going through something much deeper than everyone else, like Evan supposedly is. If you notice, almost none of the words he says/sings are specific to him, just emotional cliches that are relatable to almost anyone, especially teenagers. And their parents love the show too because the other side of it is about how difficult it us to be a parent of a teenager. This is obviously a generalisation but I feel like people that aren't in the two groups (teens/parents of teens) are able to identify the flaws with this show much more quickly, due to the lack of emotional relation to the material. I don't know, for me I could go on all day about the flaws of this show, I think it's so much more than just one thing. It seems like people (including Tony voters apparently) are just completely willing to overlook bad writing because of a great performance, a couple of catchy songs and some emotional manipulation. I think if they took out the songs and changed them into dialogue, and had another actor playing Evan, the critics would have gone in on this show.
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Post by ali973 on Jun 15, 2017 4:27:18 GMT
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Post by viserys on Jun 15, 2017 5:15:04 GMT
the most heartbreaking thing that happens in the show should be Connor's suicide but we never even find out why he kills himself and it's just used as a plot device to prop up how hard life is for Evan. It grosses me out. THIS (among other things) It was one of the most surprising things to me when watching the show that there's never any explanation about WHY Connor committed suicide. He just seems to be a foil for woe-is-me-Evan. The other young people are also mere ciphers. There would have been plenty of opportunities to use them to bring up actual problems teenagers face today. The Alana girl is depicted as a keen student/overachiever, so how about giving her something to sing about the immense pressure on teenagers today to succeed in this messed-up world? Zoe also basically remains a cipher beyond "my brother was mean to me". That Lady Geek Girl comes off a bit strongly, but she has some great points in her blog. Incidentally I was ready to throw my iPad against the wall yesterday after the third episode of 13 Reasons Which (right now) also appears to be some artificially constructed woe-is-me-teenage drama. However, with so many episodes left to go, I still have hope that it gets better and deeper. But FWIW, I think the UK does serious drama about teenagers and their problems much better. "My Mad Fat Diary" was fantastic and even the over-the-top "Skins" handled a lot of serious issues in sometimes surprisingly deep and touching ways. There's just something about that "white middle-class suburban" setting in US shows that turns me off. But I'm getting off tangent here.
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Post by d'James on Jun 15, 2017 5:25:48 GMT
I don't know this musical at all, but viserys, I would stick with 13 Reasons Why. Some of the middle episodes drag terribly but the final three or four are good. I have to say though, that all Netflix Original series are generally a let-down. They get overhyped to the extreme and they're all just 'OK.'
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Post by viserys on Jun 15, 2017 5:32:09 GMT
I don't know this musical at all, but viserys , I would stick with 13 Reasons Why. Some of the middle episodes drag terribly but the final three or four are good. I have to say though, that all Netflix Original series are generally a let-down. They get overhyped to the extreme and they're all just 'OK.' Okay - I admittedly rarely give up completely on TV shows, even if I end up doing other things on the side. I absolutely love OITNB, otherwise I'd also class most Netflix stuff as "okay" - Marco Polo had great potential (I'm a sucker for historical stuff) but sadly they cheapened it way too much with all that gratutious nudity sex nonsense. Still gutted that they axed The Get Down so quickly though. When you live in a cultural wasteland like I do, you just appreciate Netflix for being there and giving you access to tons of good TV shows in their original versions.
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Post by danb on Jun 15, 2017 6:11:42 GMT
Isn't all teen drama self indulgent, shallow and selfish? When you're a teenager that feeling of being misunderstood and wanting to be your own person etc might only last for a nano second, but is driven by chemicals in your brain above all else as much as the human condition or your relationship with your peers. To berate DEH for being a 'middle class white boy' version of this misses the point. We know what it is before we go in, so surely that's our choice to make; not a stick to beat it with when it is found to be lacking.
If an audience finds it in themself to 'forgive' Evan along the way it's up to them, just as much as I'm entitled to still think he's a whiny dickhead. I think anyone expecting more than a musical episode of 'Dawsons Creek' should do a bit more research before visiting! 😂
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 9:57:38 GMT
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Post by danielwhit on Jun 15, 2017 21:25:43 GMT
Interrupting all of your well thought out and well written posts to be silly and ask that if we're going to have a mental health musical that wont sell in London, can it at least be the really good one? Yes I know about the rights issue. BUT COME ON. I need to see this show live again. Also Tom Kitt must be fuming at how much 'Good For You' sounds like this. So - I'm slightly unsure here. What's the rights issue surrounding Next to Normal? And thanks for the video, I had forgotten how good half of the score for N2N is!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 21:31:02 GMT
Interrupting all of your well thought out and well written posts to be silly and ask that if we're going to have a mental health musical that wont sell in London, can it at least be the really good one? Yes I know about the rights issue. BUT COME ON. I need to see this show live again. Also Tom Kitt must be fuming at how much 'Good For You' sounds like this. So - I'm slightly confused. What's the rights issue surrounding Next to Normal? The Broadway producer(s) wont release them to anyone in the UK basically. Seems like they eventually plan to stage the Broadway production here and want that to be the first version we see but it's taking them way too long. An Edinburgh Fringe production even had to be cancelled a few years ago because they couldn't get the rights. Meanwhile, it's being performed all over the world including places like Israel and Peru.
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Post by welsh_tenor on Jun 19, 2017 18:06:04 GMT
Now... I know you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet (except off-of TheatreBoard of course...)
Listening to DEH videos on YouTube and on the Tony performance someone commented how cute it was that Ben Platt lifts his leg and arms up in sync to be quirky with his character. Someone then commented to say he does that as it helps him belt the high notes due to a trapped nerve.
Even as I type I can see most of you rolling your eyes... but surely this is too random to be made up!?
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Post by singularsensation10 on Jun 19, 2017 19:31:22 GMT
As a classically trained singer, I can categorically confirm that that is not a thing. I've tried to sing through the DEH score and most of it sits on my break - Ben has an extensive and effortless top range. He doesn't need to shake his trapped nerve to hit a B flat 😂
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Post by alison on Jun 19, 2017 19:47:04 GMT
Now... I know you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet (except off-of TheatreBoard of course...) Listening to DEH videos on YouTube and on the Tony performance someone commented how cute it was that Ben Platt lifts his leg and arms up in sync to be quirky with his character. Someone then commented to say he does that as it helps him belt the high notes due to a trapped nerve. Even as I type I can see most of you rolling your eyes... but surely this is too random to be made up!? It definitely was mentioned as something that he does in an article about him before the Tonys though. Let me see if I can find it. Edit: Here's the article in question, it's about halfway down: www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/theater/how-ben-platt-beame-the-toast-of-broadway-dear-evan-hansen-tony-awards.html"Ms. Caplan massaged the muscles around his larynx and had him put peppermint oil in his nose. “We need to Roto-Rooter out his sinuses,” she said. They went through a series of exercises that gradually grew more intense, his range expanding and volume rising. “Use the knees,” she said. “Let the hip flexors help you.” As he started to belt more, he lifted one leg and bent at the knee, to relieve pressure on the vagus nerve and, as Ms. Caplan described it, “keep the neck and upper body from straining and separating.” “We’re putting notes into his body in a positive, non-stressed way,” she said. “So then when he’s onstage in those unhealthy positions, he’ll be able to access them.” It’s a gesture you see him repeat in the show, most notably in the second-act aria, “Words Fail,” in which he confesses to the Murphys that everything he’s told them is a lie. He’s standing before them, hunched and sobbing. It seems an impossible posture from which to project a song, but he’s incorporated the leg-lifting into his character so that it reads to the audience like a bodily expression of intolerable emotion. “There are all these other little places where I lean back and fill my diaphragm, and then go back into it,” he said. “Or, because I’m crying so hard, spaces where I know I can swallow the mucus that’s coming down. We put all these little things in place, and now they’re just there, they’re second nature, so I can just let it fly.”"
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Post by welsh_tenor on Jun 19, 2017 20:37:15 GMT
alison that's brilliant and I sit corrected! It sounded too random to be made up! Thanks for sharing!
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Post by singularsensation10 on Jun 19, 2017 20:53:55 GMT
Consider my words eaten! Bloody Americans and their expressive behaviours... *runs off to use my hip flexors to extend my range*
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Post by ali973 on Jun 19, 2017 20:57:43 GMT
Ben gave a fantastic performance, but since seeing it in December,I can't remember how high lifts whatever he's lifting. I didn't read the article, but the explanation of his physiotherapist sounds like pseudoscience.
Ok I'm cranky I'm going to bed. .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 21:10:11 GMT
This is utterly brilliant, consider my day officially made
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Post by TallPaul on Jun 20, 2017 12:30:58 GMT
I bet Paul Nicholas didn't faff about like this at the height of his powers!
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Post by viserys on Jun 23, 2017 4:58:47 GMT
Nobody mentioned this bit from the latest round of Baz updates in the Daily Fail:
Early efforts are being made to bring Tony award-winning musical Dear Evan Hansen to London, but it will probably go outside the West End first, then transfer. It’s a stunning piece of work, but a major factor in its success is the central performance by Ben Platt (who also won a Tony). He is a rare sensation.
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Post by ali973 on Jun 23, 2017 5:47:50 GMT
hmmm...outside of the West End like where? Somewhere like Manchester? I wonder why they'd do that, it's not like they will be trying out rewrites? It's also not such a huge spectacle that requires working out technical kinks.
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Post by HereForTheatre on Jun 23, 2017 6:41:23 GMT
Outside the West End doesn't mean outside London. It means not the West End. Many theatres are not the West End.
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Post by viserys on Jun 23, 2017 7:00:33 GMT
Yea, my guess is some place like the Menier, Southwark Playhouse, Charing X Theatre, Young Vic, etc...
Actually Young Vic springs to mind, they did Scottsboro Boys which then transferred and I'm sure they are hoping to transfer Fun Home too, if it succeeds.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 23, 2017 9:19:39 GMT
Yea, my guess is some place like the Menier, Southwark Playhouse, Charing X Theatre, Young Vic, etc... Actually Young Vic springs to mind, they did Scottsboro Boys which then transferred and I'm sure they are hoping to transfer Fun Home too, if it succeeds. Young Vic is too small for the current production (and Menier, Southwark etc are even smaller).
More likely is Lyric Hammersmith, but Spring Awakening at the same venue was transferred poorly.
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Post by ali973 on Jun 23, 2017 9:26:27 GMT
I'm with Pirelli here- this is NOT a small-fringe show a la Menier, Southwark or Young Vic. This is a high tech show, with lights going crazy all over the place and TV monitors with overactive "status updates". After working on it for such a long time and touring in the US, I'm sure they'd want to export the same product and not reinvent the wheel with a new blue print, design, etc. Plus, why would a fringe venue, typically seeking non-mainstream topics pick this up? This show is as commercial and mainstream as it can get.
And again..if IN London but not in the West End..why?
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Post by welsh_tenor on Jun 23, 2017 9:58:22 GMT
Stick it in the West End and be done with it. Pay Ben Platt to come over and open it for 6 months ala Idina/Wicked and then cast Liam Doyle as Standby to take over full time after!
Simples - I'll ring Marc Platt now!
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