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Post by wickedgrin on Mar 6, 2019 22:26:21 GMT
As for the parents letting their children sleep in the same bedroom as an adult male - there are no words!
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 6, 2019 22:29:18 GMT
As for the parents letting their children sleep in the same bedroom as an adult male - there are no words! Something posted by a nobody on Twitter is evidence of nothing. Nothing at all.
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1,936 posts
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Post by wickedgrin on Mar 6, 2019 22:33:40 GMT
The fact is that Michael Jackson was found innocent in a court of law in 2005. These two guys swore under oath that no abuse took place. So were they lying then ( under oath in a court of law ) or lying now?
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Post by amadeus on Mar 6, 2019 22:40:47 GMT
The fact is that Michael Jackson was found innocent in a court of law in 2005. These two guys swore under oath that no abuse took place. So were they lying then ( under oath in a court of law ) or lying now? All of this is explained in Part 2. I suggest you at least listen to what the other side has to say before leaping to his defense...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 22:42:36 GMT
I think a full judgement is only fair on both sides once we have seen both parts. But I'm floored by this whole documentary thus far. I've just found it so shocking and highly emotional to watch.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 6, 2019 22:45:51 GMT
I’m watching on 4+1 and it’s just.... it’s just weird that a grown man wants to spend so much time with a 10 year old. Most boys of the same age don’t spend that much time together, even best friends.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 6, 2019 22:47:08 GMT
Wickedgrin - have you watched the documentary?
I have watched it all now - and it is compelling and credible. Yes, it is presented for TV - but they come over as sincere and damaged by their experiences.
The 2005 trial was not the only time allegations of inappropriate behaviour had been made.
We will never get to the truth of what went on - historic cases like this rarely do get properly resolved. But we have seen too many times that powerful people have a way of escaping proper scrutiny
The graphic you shared is clearly one put together by someone determined to defend their idol. It is not an objective statement of 'facts'
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 22:53:10 GMT
I've just seen on Twitter, fans have been protesting outside of the Channel 4 Headquarters today over the documentary, many with banners saying "facts don't lie, people do".
... before people have even had the chance to watch this documentary.
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Post by terrylondon79 on Mar 6, 2019 23:01:20 GMT
The trouble with the way this documentary is presented is its just reminding me of the show Quiz and how easy it is to present facts to fit your agenda. The music images used etc. Just feels very contrived. I'll wait till I've seen part 2 till i decide what to make of it. Unfortunately I don't believe what the media shows you. The program has been made to make a profit, and manipulate you into believing its agenda. Its probable you could make a equally believable documentary to show the 2 of them as liers.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 6, 2019 23:02:19 GMT
Even if they had watched the documentary, they would just say that it has been manipulated/scripted/edited to show MJ in the worst possible light.
I am always sceptical of claims against celebs - but these two families present a very compelling and credible narrative.
Could it be fake? Possibly. But - to my mind - not probable.
There are still those who defend Jimmy Savile or the US gymnastic coach who was recently convicted. Not every celebrity who is accused of this sort of crime is guilty. But the documentary presents two very powerful stories that need to be heard before anyone dismisses them out of hand.
(and I have seen both parts - this is not just on the basis of the first)
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Post by callum on Mar 6, 2019 23:02:36 GMT
Listened to an interview with the director where the interviewer posited that the Jackson machine and the MJ Innocent brigade have a massive bot/troll farm operation going on social media, and he didn't deny that it was the case.
The side that undoubtedly has the biggest financial motivation in any of this are the people that want to preserve an $825 million annual income for the Michael Jackson estate. No one was paid for participating in the doc, and hard to imagine that any financial gains that they might get down the line will be worth the criticism/abuse they'll receive - Wade said in the Oprah interview that he gets almost daily death threats.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 23:05:31 GMT
As for the parents letting their children sleep in the same bedroom as an adult male - there are no words! But the adult male that wanted to sleep in the same bed as these children was totally understandable and innocent, right?
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Post by kathryn on Mar 6, 2019 23:31:10 GMT
That’s the thing - the completely verifiable stuff is unhealthy and weird for a grown man to be doing with kids.
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Post by crowblack on Mar 7, 2019 0:01:19 GMT
I had to switch it off, but it was like seeing something on children being raised by awful parents in a fanatical religious cult. I was already fuming about that even before we got on to the sexual abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 0:06:56 GMT
I have to agree that whilst the accusations are awful, another feeling I had was one of anger and fustration toward those parents who, in my opinion, were not protecting their children like any parent would and shouls. They continued to practically abandon their children with a stranger or agree to let them even stay in the same bed as a stranger. Famous or not, no matter how close, you don't do that to your own child.
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Post by callum on Mar 7, 2019 0:12:23 GMT
I have to agree that whilst the accusations are awful, another feeling I had was one of anger and fustration toward those parents who, in my opinion, were not protecting their children like any parent would and shouls. They continued to practically abandon their children with a stranger or agree to let them even stay in the same bed as a stranger. Famous or not, no matter how close, you don't do that to your own child. A lot of Part 2 is dealing with their response - Michael seduced them like he seduced the children. The Safechucks did not need to pick up Michael, he made them feel as if they were responsible for him like they were Jimmy and inserted himself into every part of their lives. Firstly, he wasn't a stranger to them and secondly just by being MICHAEL JACKSON they felt like they knew him. Neverland is literally designed to keep the parents away from the children. The reckoning that the parents have with themselves is just as compelling IMO as the reckoning that the children have. Wade said that even though he didn't meet Michael until he was 7, he felt like he was being groomed from the age of 5 just by idolising him. Fame is completely crucial
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 7, 2019 0:20:13 GMT
Being made to feel special by probably the biggest star on the planet would be enough to turn any head. The aura that surrounds certain celebrities can be incredible.
Did the parents always act in the best interests of their children? Of course not.
Did they feel a connection to MJ? It certainly seems so.
Enough trust was clearly established for this unusual behaviour to appear to be acceptable - just part of the world of MJ
And MJ was clearly a very damaged human being as well. Not that it excuses him - but it does go some of the way to explain it.
Sadness is mainly what I left with. Sadness for lives blighted by abuse. Sadness for lives blighted by fame. Sadness for everyone involved - even MJ - but not forgiveness.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 0:23:30 GMT
Yes, the parents are not blameless, but they were also manipulated. It's not difficult to see psychologically why they allowed this to happen. I mean, you should go watch Abducted In Plain Sight on Netflix if you want a deeper, even more disturbing look into how parents can become manipulated into helping their child to be abused, and that was just a normal man doing it, not the most famous man in the world.
I think it's hard to comprehend what it would feel like to go from normality to being invited to tour with and stay at the home of Michael Jackson at the peak of his career. Powerful people get what they want for a reason. They're hard to say no to. And look at how the world trusted him, even though he was walking off planes holding hands with children that weren't his. No one batted an eye, people barely did even after he had been accused for the first time. He continued to be allowed to have children surrounding him. If the world trusted him, it's not hard to see why someone that knew him and had been personally manipulated to trust him would either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 0:30:53 GMT
Just the most insane story. I obviously knew alot going into this documentary as I have been fascinated with the whole Michael Jackson story for ages, and everyone in the world knows a little about the case at least, but the fact it's still unravelling even now with new allegations and different perspectives. It's so crazy that, should these cases be true, he got away with so much over the years, literally in front of the world.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Mar 7, 2019 0:46:42 GMT
Because Jackson was so big a brand, someone who many invested in to such a degree that he formed part of his fan’s identities, it becomes more difficult to change opinions. With some nobody, there would be nothing much at stake to let go of. If you grew up idolising, imitating, buying product of someone, however, then letting that go could almost seem like destroying yourself and negating part of who you are. It shouldn’t, of course, but at what point does evidence break that down?
At while ago it seemed like a large percentage of seventies popular entertainment was being exposed - Saville, Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris, sundry disc jockeys and pop stars. Now our eyes are opened, though. Just because they are dead or old, knowing what we now know is as much a lesson that we, the unknowing audience, needed to learn.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 8:07:21 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex.
I am always surprised that people can’t see that there is very little to gain from speaking out about violence or abuse, certainly not fame or money. I get very depressed that people think that these are prime motivators of human behaviour these days. The twitter post suggesting that this is revenge for someone not getting a choreography job? How can they not realise that these people’s careers are essentially over now? That death threats, disbelief and abuse are something they’ll have to deal with on a daily basis?
Can anyone name the last time someone was accused of something like this and was completely exonerated? I remember Conor Oberst. Cliff Richard?
My all time favourite recording artist was exposed last week. I could not let my 20 years of fandom stand in the way of believing his victims. Every single album has been deleted. Why can’t people just accept that famous people are human, imperfect and, sometimes, absolute monsters?
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 7, 2019 8:42:36 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex. I am always surprised that people can’t see that there is very little to gain from speaking out about violence or abuse, certainly not fame or money. I get very depressed that people think that these are prime motivators of human behaviour these days. The twitter post suggesting that this is revenge for someone not getting a choreography job? How can they not realise that these people’s careers are essentially over now? That death threats, disbelief and abuse are something they’ll have to deal with on a daily basis? Can anyone name the last time someone was accused of something like this and was completely exonerated? I remember Conor Oberst. Cliff Richard? My all time favourite recording artist was exposed last week. I could not let my 20 years of fandom stand in the way of believing his victims. Every single album has been deleted. Why can’t people just accept that famous people are human, imperfect and, sometimes, absolute monsters? This perfectly crystallises everything I think and is so well expressed. You are a fan who sees past your adoration unlike the person who posted the above tweet, and who went on to say "plainly they are just after fame and money".
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2019 9:18:51 GMT
Isn’t it partly that people didn’t really see him as an adult himself? He was sort of caught in amber as a child performer, and people just kept thinking of him as that little boy.
And he himself couldn’t handle growing up either.
It’s almost like there was a mass delusion going on to keep this man a child, so no-one saw anything odd about him wanting to play with children all day.
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Mar 7, 2019 9:22:08 GMT
I found this harrowing and it made me sick to my stomach but regarding the documentary itself I found it so tedious to get through. So many filler shots of landscape that just completely slowed down the pacing. Of course you want to let what you're hearing sit for a while to process it but they talk so slow that it seems unnecessary to me. Not to mention the manipulative score. I feel like it would have been far more harrowing with a lot more silence. So yeah, the content of the documentary was eye-opening and horrific but the actual execution I found wanting.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2019 9:26:52 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex. It certainly seems to be a factor in the Brian Singer case. And I think (massive generalisation alert) boys often don’t respond to abuse the same way that women/girls do. They are more likely to express trauma in self-destructive ways - drink, drugs, violence, etc - and that impacts on their credibility. There’s no such thing as a perfect victim, of course. When it comes to establishing credibility a child that has been trained to lie by their abuser- as part of the abuse - is especially going to struggle to appear truthful to others.
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Post by crowblack on Mar 7, 2019 9:30:18 GMT
caught in amber as a child performer I don't know much about Jackson but I'd imagine his childhood was bizarre. The irony is that these parents were inflicting the same sort of weirdness on their own children. If your 5 year old is obesssively glued to a zombie pop video, most parents, you'd hope, would enrol the boy in a playgroup with other kids, or get him crayons and plasticine, not make him a leather outfit and put him on show. God knows, horror stories about the screwed-up lives and early deaths of child stars were a 'thing' even when I was a child.
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Post by danb on Mar 7, 2019 9:54:03 GMT
One thing that stands out to me is that this film has been ‘allowed’ through the net now that there are fewer people making money from MJ. His reputation needed protecting at all costs whilst he was alive and, to an extent, straight after his death (ie. the most lucrative financial period for most artists.). If the great entertainment gods knew that this was/wasn’t true they would have found a way to stop it being aired. But the financial incentive to do either is no longer there for them so it’s open season.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 7, 2019 10:04:55 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex. I am always surprised that people can’t see that there is very little to gain from speaking out about violence or abuse, certainly not fame or money. I get very depressed that people think that these are prime motivators of human behaviour these days. The twitter post suggesting that this is revenge for someone not getting a choreography job? How can they not realise that these people’s careers are essentially over now? That death threats, disbelief and abuse are something they’ll have to deal with on a daily basis? Can anyone name the last time someone was accused of something like this and was completely exonerated? I remember Conor Oberst. Cliff Richard? My all time favourite recording artist was exposed last week. I could not let my 20 years of fandom stand in the way of believing his victims. Every single album has been deleted. Why can’t people just accept that famous people are human, imperfect and, sometimes, absolute monsters? I don't know whether it is the fact that the victims are male that is affecting perception of their accounts or something else. The issue of trusting victims is a complicated one. As has been seen time after time, it is the lack of physical evidence that makes historical cases all the harder to pursue and where a false victim comes forward, that tends to undermine credibility in all the genuine ones - unjust but how things can be perceived. We have seen that recently in the case of the man who made allegations that he was the victim of a high profile paedophile ring involving senior politicians - and has since been charged with perverting the course of justice and is facing trial in May. If you aren't aware of the case, look up Operation Midland. We should always listen with empathy and consideration to anyone making claims of abuse. Those cases should be investigated with sensitivity and care. All victims must be heard. Having heard what the two men said in the documentary, I do find them to be convincing. Yes, that is how the direction/editing wants you to react - but if they were not credible, something would have rung false at some point. Nothing did - for me. I know I am not an expert and I am aware that they have not always been consistent - but such is the way with many, many victims of childhood sexual abuse - particularly with the high level of grooming that went on. We must never let the small number of those who lie about abuse taint the genuine cases - though, human nature being what it is, it will always create doubt. But hearing victims with sensitivity and empathy is something we must always do.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:16:19 GMT
isn't it great to lay blame on someone who cannot defend themselve anymore just because of that i would never watch this anyone could say anything and Micheal cannot say anything on his behalf anymore so many people just wanting a bit of fame for themselves by accusing whatever No one was saying this after Jimmy Saville died.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:19:42 GMT
As for the parents letting their children sleep in the same bedroom as an adult male - there are no words! But, but, it's Michael Jackson!! Above reproach!
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