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Post by lynette on Nov 21, 2017 19:47:05 GMT
Lurve this thread and yes, why not revive a few of them, o NT?
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Post by kathryn on Nov 21, 2017 20:03:01 GMT
They are committed to doing exactly that by 2021 and from then on so why keep moaning ? The fact they currently don’t must mean the plays submitted to them by female writers are even worse than those by male authors they’ve been inflicting on their audience - barely seems possible I know. I wasn't aware that I had been 'keeping moaning'. However the National isn't just about new plays. Why isn't a revival of The Little Foxes or Susan and God or Dear Octopus or The Rover or Sex or Steaming or many others just as worthwhile a project as Damned by Despair or The Kitchen or From Morning 'til Midnight or The Captain of Copernik or many of the others less than successful revivals they've had in the last few years. You surely can't claim there is nothing listed here worthy of a revival We saw a student production of The Rover at RADA a few years ago, and it made us wonder why we hadn’t seen any major productions of it at the NT since we started going. It’s big and broad enough to work in the Olivier!
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Nov 21, 2017 20:47:02 GMT
Looking at these lists makes the paucity of female playwrights performed at the NT completely shocking. Wouldn't it be great if they tried to have even one year with a 50:50 gender balance? They are committed to doing exactly that by 2021 and from then on so why keep moaning ? The fact they currently don’t must mean the plays submitted to them by female writers are even worse than those by male authors they’ve been inflicting on their audience - barely seems possible I know. My job involves a minor amount of involvement in the NT's new writing process. The proposed scheme to achieve gender parity by 2021 is an excellent idea but is still in the very early stages, and realistically major changes will need to happen if this proposal is to come to fruition. You have to remember that the NT does not operate an open submissions policy. Playwrights cannot simply "submit" a script to them. Unless you are established, you have to be invited to submit a script. Meaning playwrights need to either have some profile from work staged elsewhere, or have a connection, to get their script read there. The majority of scripts that make it out of NYS development to full production do not come about as the result of a playwright submitting a script, but via commissioning or a director taking a project to them. St George and the Dragon was commissioned and programmed before the script was written.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Nov 22, 2017 0:40:11 GMT
A Taste of Honey Light Shining in Buckinghamshire Our Country's Good Jane Eyre Cleansed You surely can't claim there is nothing listed here worthy of a revival
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 15:09:11 GMT
They are committed to doing exactly that by 2021 and from then on so why keep moaning ? The fact they currently don’t must mean the plays submitted to them by female writers are even worse than those by male authors they’ve been inflicting on their audience - barely seems possible I know. My job involves a minor amount of involvement in the NT's new writing process. The proposed scheme to achieve gender parity by 2021 is an excellent idea but is still in the very early stages, and realistically major changes will need to happen if this proposal is to come to fruition. You have to remember that the NT does not operate an open submissions policy. Playwrights cannot simply "submit" a script to them. Unless you are established, you have to be invited to submit a script. Meaning playwrights need to either have some profile from work staged elsewhere, or have a connection, to get their script read there. The majority of scripts that make it out of NYS development to full production do not come about as the result of a playwright submitting a script, but via commissioning or a director taking a project to them. St George and the Dragon was commissioned and programmed before the script was written. I am absolutely shocked that St G and the Dragon was programmed before he delivered a script I have never heard of such a thing. That places so much pressure on the writer to have a script ready in time. Writers just don’t work like that - unless they’re writing for TV.
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Xanderl
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Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Nov 22, 2017 15:35:40 GMT
We saw a student production of The Rover at RADA a few years ago, and it made us wonder why we hadn’t seen any major productions of it at the NT since we started going. It’s big and broad enough to work in the Olivier! The RSC's production of The Rover last year was excellent - seemed far more deserving of a transfer than all the other RSC productions which did end up on London. Re programming St George before the script was written - same happened with Richard Bean's "Count of Monte Cristo" although in that case the play was pulled, after tickets went on sale.
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Post by Jan on Nov 22, 2017 16:21:12 GMT
They are committed to doing exactly that by 2021 and from then on so why keep moaning ? The fact they currently don’t must mean the plays submitted to them by female writers are even worse than those by male authors they’ve been inflicting on their audience - barely seems possible I know. I wasn't aware that I had been 'keeping moaning'. However the National isn't just about new plays. Why isn't a revival of The Little Foxes or Susan and God or Dear Octopus or The Rover or Sex or Steaming or many others just as worthwhile a project as Damned by Despair or The Kitchen or From Morning 'til Midnight or The Captain of Copernik or many of the others less than successful revivals they've had in the last few years. You surely can't claim there is nothing listed here worthy of a revival That is a separate issue really, they daren’t revive any plays that won’t have a chance of filling the Lyttelton or Olivier and not many of the ones you list will. When they allowed revivals in the Cottesloe they DID programme Enchantment and Rutherford and Son as I mentioned above - now it would be impossible for them to stage those two. I don’t think The Rover would fill the bigger houses and anyway the RSC have done it twice. I saw The Lucky Chance years ago and it is worth reviving but again it is a Cottesloe show.
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Post by lynette on Nov 22, 2017 18:31:57 GMT
If they have to invite a writer to submit a script, then may I respectfully ask them to approach a few more people.
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Post by profquatermass on Nov 22, 2017 19:06:22 GMT
There are plenty of plays by women that could do well and it's bizarre to say otherwise. These Three was revived in the West End a few years - why shouldn't the NT give another Lilian Hellman a try? His Girl Friday and Once in a Lifetime have proved there's a market for pre-war Americana - maybe someone should give the original stage version of Chicago a punt. Or one of Mae West's plays. Dear Octopus was revived on a regular basis until the 1970s. Dodie Smith is just as much of a name as Priestley. There are loads of plays listed in this thread that I would love to see and I'm clearly not alone
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 19:26:37 GMT
My job involves a minor amount of involvement in the NT's new writing process. The proposed scheme to achieve gender parity by 2021 is an excellent idea but is still in the very early stages, and realistically major changes will need to happen if this proposal is to come to fruition. You have to remember that the NT does not operate an open submissions policy. Playwrights cannot simply "submit" a script to them. Unless you are established, you have to be invited to submit a script. Meaning playwrights need to either have some profile from work staged elsewhere, or have a connection, to get their script read there. The majority of scripts that make it out of NYS development to full production do not come about as the result of a playwright submitting a script, but via commissioning or a director taking a project to them. St George and the Dragon was commissioned and programmed before the script was written. I am absolutely shocked that St G and the Dragon was programmed before he delivered a script I have never heard of such a thing. That places so much pressure on the writer to have a script ready in time. Writers just don’t work like that - unless they’re writing for TV. That is literally how commissioning works. You're asked to write a play about x including y. Usually places like the NT and other bigger 'new writing' organisations there will be a process- from a 'treatment' type stage (to borrow more from TV/Film) through drafts and workshops with either literary assistant/manager/dramaturg attached to it to support a writer. If it's a smaller producing team that depends on the relationship there- some team up with AD's/the director of the piece early on for support, others disappear into their writer-hole and emerge fully formed with a piece. Some writers love that way of working others hate it. I read somewhere from someone (helpful) the other day they will 'never do a commission' because they hate writing what someone tells them to. If a play is commissioned by a theatre, the very definition is it doesn't exist beforehand. Otherwise it would be from 'submissions'...of which the NT only takes invited plays as samuelwhiskers says above.
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Post by kathryn on Nov 22, 2017 20:15:07 GMT
And they do reach out to multiple writers - I remember Hytner saying that the infamous Greenland was a combination of bits from different scripts after they’d invited submissions.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 20:18:39 GMT
And they do reach out to multiple writers - I remember Hytner saying that the infamous Greenland was a combination of bits from different scripts after they’d invited submissions. I'm sure there's a story about multiple writers 'abandoning ship' on some big NT script as well that was a disaster. I forget which- must be in one of the books on the NT. But they have various 'lists' on the go of writers for x or y that get approached, and the lucky (unlucky depending on how it all pans out?) one gets it. Personally, as a writer commissioning, despite the pressure, is quite nice because the initial 'Great Idea' (or again not) is out of your hands.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Nov 23, 2017 15:51:28 GMT
National Theatre Wales has today put on-sale two productions (Pearson/Brookes' STORM.1 and STORM.2) with no writers credited. Maybe, found texts will be used or adapted?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2017 15:57:56 GMT
"Conceived, designed and directed by Mike Pearson and Mike Brookes", sounds fairly unambiguous to me.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Nov 23, 2017 16:13:19 GMT
"Conceived, designed and directed by Mike Pearson and Mike Brookes", sounds fairly unambiguous to me. You mean they are using found texts and assembling them without the assistance of a writer? Yes, probably.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2017 18:17:36 GMT
There are plenty of plays by women that could do well and it's bizarre to say otherwise. These Three was revived in the West End a few years - why shouldn't the NT give another Lilian Hellman a try? His Girl Friday and Once in a Lifetime have proved there's a market for pre-war Americana - maybe someone should give the original stage version of Chicago a punt. Or one of Mae West's plays. Dear Octopus was revived on a regular basis until the 1970s. Dodie Smith is just as much of a name as Priestley. There are loads of plays listed in this thread that I would love to see and I'm clearly not alone I agree. If theatres worry about filling the space they just have to cast “stars”. That’ll put bums on seats.
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Post by showgirl on Sept 29, 2018 5:01:01 GMT
Given the comment by oxfordsimon in the current discussion on the NT's 2019 programming, I thought it worth posting this excerpt from an interview with Deborah McAndrew who was interviewed for an article on Northern Broadsides' new touring version of a Dario Fo play, which she has adapted: "There has been a lot of debate recently about an absence of new plays by female writers. What are your thoughts about this? I feel a little strange talking about this, as I’m always busy. That said, the only way I’ve managed to write an original play (not an adaptation) in the past 4 years is through my own company – Claybody Theatre. There is a long way to go before women are commissioned on the same basis as men in the British theatre. The arts and culture writer Victoria Sadler’s work on this is most compelling – she has reviewed the top 6 London Theatres’ programming in relation to commissioning for the past three years. This is not conjecture, or anecdote, or opinion, but fact. I refer you to her article for the detail, but her conclusion is that female playwrights are not being platformed or supported on the main stages of London. I think the picture is better in the regional theatres, but it’s clear that the higher up the ‘food chain’ you go the fewer women writers you’ll find. A quick glance at the RSC’s new writing page shows 12 new recently produced works – 3 of which are by women." (From the website now called The Reviews Hub but formerly The Public Reviews)
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Post by kathryn on Sept 29, 2018 9:46:52 GMT
Arguably it should be the job of the subsidised sector to support those developing writers until they have commercial draw. But it’s a process, and it’ll take time for results to be seen.
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Xanderl
Member
Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Sept 29, 2018 9:48:28 GMT
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Sept 29, 2018 13:15:00 GMT
The problem is male playwrights disproportionately get given the chance to prove themselves in main spaces while woman don’t. I’ve seen men with relatively little experience given huge commissions, while women with far more experience and a proven track record of critically and commercially acclaimed fringe/touring/studio space shows remain overlooked.
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Post by foxa on Sept 29, 2018 14:43:36 GMT
There is also more of an emphasis on youth and being a fresh voice for women. Think of all the female playwrights who has struck big when very young - sometimes even teens. Frequently they are writing about coming of age; sexuality or family (particularly mother/daughter relationships.) Which is great. But then it suddenly falls off - no developing into a middle-aged female writer with a wider range of subjects. Interesting quote from the playwright of Octoroon about this: “Well” — Jacobs-Jenkins slows down just a little — “when I talk to American playwrights, there is a sense that the plays you’re writing over there are formally conservative. You seem to have a lot of first plays written by very young women who then disappear, and by a few youngish men who write very quickly and get all their work produced, but their plays are like New Yorker articles.”
I've read some female playwrights of note comment on this. One said she said, only partly in jest, that she thought there could only be three successful female playwrights at any given time - when a new one came along one of the older ones had to bugger off. Another said she had been told by a literary manger or artistic director that his ideal new playwright would be someone who had not only never written a play before, but never seen one. The playwright as found object rather than craftsperson/artist. I suspect so that the director could then play a Svengali role, until he lost interest. Another said there was was more interest in depicting attractive young women's stories (both as writer and as protagonist.) Putting Caryl Churchill to one side because she is the genius who proves the rule, Britain has very few examples of female playwrights who have been able to extend their careers through middle-age - though with some of the brilliant writers coming up I hope that will not be the case (though they may all be snapped up film or tv.) Lastly, I think there is a lack of creative partnerships between powerful directors/artistic directors with female playwrights, which is probably the most important thing for sustaining a career in major spaces.
But I will also put in one caveat. I have heard from more than one female director that they receive many more unsolicited plays from men and that women are more apologetic when approaching them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 20:47:19 GMT
It's very valid. The only angle I would add to the debate is that it isn't actual gender discrimination, simply economic discrimination. A known writer is considerably less risky and more bankable in the high-stakes London Theatre world. Women are under-represented in having a track-record, so that's where the issue lies. If a woman writer's name can sell as show in the West End as a woman performer's name can, it would happen. It's getting those female writers to the same level as their acting sisters (and directors - I mean, I try never to miss a Carrie Cracknell or Polly Stenham - and I know they write too) that is the tricky bit. How do women become bankable if they are not given the chance in the first place? How come they took a risk on Rory Mullarkey when no one had ever heard of him? It is discrimination plain and simple. The powerful men in control probably give work to young women they fancy. They can’t control older women who are an intellectual match for them/don’t take any bullsh1t.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 20:55:07 GMT
foxa. I suspect the same thing will happen to the bright young women you mention as happens to most women unless they are championed by powerful men. Timberlake Wertenbaker wrote brilliant plays as a young woman. Remember,Churchill had longevity because she was championed by Max Stafford-Clark as AD of the RC not because of her genius - that only became apparent later on, even though she had written some extraordinary plays from the start. Sadler’s statistics demonstrate just how bad things are. Young women do not just write plays about mothers and daughters and even if they did so what? The theme of fathers and sons is the central focus of Shakespeare’s Henry IV and of Hamlet. Nobody dismisses those. You make it sound as though the “falling off” is their fault but what if they are not given the chance to write other sorts of play? Edit: it is even worse for women of colour. If there can only be three white women at any one time there can only be one British woman of colour at any one time at each institution. Check out the RC and the NT to see the truth of this. Some theatres have never produced plays by British women of colour in their whole existence. Oh, and women are more apologetic about handing over plays because evidence proves that they are unlikely to be produced no matter how good they are. No wonder they have no confidence. Men at the top should be ashamed. A lot of theatrical innovation is driven by women who have not been rewarded for their efforts.
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Post by foxa on Sept 29, 2018 20:57:54 GMT
I wasn't dismissing those topics cleostryker - I said they were great. I just think there are a lot of other stories that aren't being told. I also don't think I made it sound like the young playwright's fault. Weird - not at all how I thought what I wrote would be received since I am so clearly arguing for more representation of women playwrights and just trying to work through why it isn't happening (and having read and studied quite a bit about it.)
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Post by foxa on Sept 30, 2018 8:30:50 GMT
Edit: it is even worse for women of colour. If there can only be three white women at any one time there can only be one British woman of colour at any one time at each institution. Check out the RC and the NT to see the truth of this. Some theatres have never produced plays by British women of colour in their whole existence. Oh, and women are more apologetic about handing over plays because evidence proves that they are unlikely to be produced no matter how good they are. No wonder they have no confidence. Men at the top should be ashamed. A lot of theatrical innovation is driven by women who have not been rewarded for their efforts. I am very aware of the this. One of the playwrights I was paraphrasing in my comments was a British woman of colour from a Q&A session after one of her plays. She and a number of other female playwrights have commented on the difficulties they have after that initial breakthrough. (And, of course, that initial breakthrough is hard enough!) Virtually everything I said in my initial posting on this subject was from Q&A sessions with playwrights; playwrights' blogs; interviews and twitter discussions, so don't appreciate the unreasonable claim that I am blaming or dismissing them. It's fine to get angry about it - I am too - but better to try to figure out why it is happening and what can be done about it.
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