4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Nov 16, 2017 20:58:40 GMT
Okay we know shows play Broadway and do well (in most cases) and then - what do they do, they hit the road in the US only.
When producers get round to planning a US tour, they must have a good idea of their future intentions. So thinking of musicals such as Nice Work If You Can Get It, Cinderella (musical), Bright Star, Catch Me If You Can and Something Rotten etc, so why not extend the US tour into the UK, which could add up to a year to the road and give British audience an opportunity to see something else and if goes well could find itself on the way to the West End, so why not to like?
|
|
2,763 posts
|
Post by daniel on Nov 16, 2017 21:02:17 GMT
Okay we know shows play Broadway and do well (in most cases) and then - what do they do, they hit the road in the US only. When producers get round to planning a US tour, they must have a good idea of their future intentions. So thinking of musicals such as Nice Work If You Can Get It, Cinderella (musical), Bright Star, Catch Me If You Can and Something Rotten etc, so why not extend the US tour into the UK, which could add up to a year to the road and give British audience an opportunity to see something else and if goes well could find itself on the way to the West End, so why not to like? I’ve often wondered the same - or even, if there’s a show (ala Newsies) that they’re not sure how well would be received over here, do a 12 week limited run as part of the US tour, to gauge reaction. I wonder if it’s something to do with Equity exchange - so if a wholly American cast were to come over, then Brits are being “denied” those roles, so the same number of jobs would have to be made available to Brits in the US. Don’t know if there’s any exceptions to this. |
|
6,284 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Nov 16, 2017 21:26:51 GMT
I imagine it'd be a nightmare scheduling wise not to mention travel costs to ship the set and cast overseas.
|
|
|
|
Post by stagebyte on Nov 16, 2017 22:18:05 GMT
The UK cast of Bat Out Of Hell are currently in Canada...
|
|
2,763 posts
|
Post by daniel on Nov 16, 2017 22:21:49 GMT
Plus many UK tours go to the Far East, Dubai, South Africa etc, which is what made me thought it must be an Equity issue between the UK and USA.
|
|
6,284 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Nov 16, 2017 22:37:24 GMT
Plus many UK tours go to the Far East, Dubai, South Africa etc, which is what made me thought it must be an Equity issue between the UK and USA. I wonder if it’s easier and cheaper to send a U.K. tour overseas compared to a US tour? To produce a Broadway show is three times more expensive compared to West End so unless you’re willing to pay everyone the same amount which would mean it’s already expensive to tour and also charge more in the hope to recoup or make a profit and it doesn’t make financial sense. |
|
4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Nov 16, 2017 22:54:16 GMT
What would a couple of cargo crates cost for a week at sea? Then you have the cast and tour management air fares, do you pay for business class or would the cast be happy with premium economy/economy? Even so this wouldn’t be too expensive and they are one off cost, the cost of transport of set and costumes easily offsets building a new set and costumes for the UK leg.
Equity wouldn’t like it, but ultimately they’re powerless to do anything to stop this, but my preferred optioned would be to work with Equity and negotiate, for example it could be possible to cast several roles to British actors for both US and UK leg, depending on cast size.
If the tour is successful then you have the bonus of re-casting a British cast for a West End run and also if the tour is well received subsequent tours can go out with a British cast, you know the shows that hit the road a lot, something like Spamalot or Chicago.
In a big theatre like at Southampton or Edinburgh etc you could rake in a million a week.
|
|
6,284 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Nov 16, 2017 23:41:21 GMT
^Surely if a Broadway producer thought it was viable, it would have happened already? The US and U.K. touring market are different beasts and I imagine theatre owners would be wary if a show has done okay touring in the US but wasn’t a hit on Broadway, it’s fine with a tried and tested production like a Wicked or a Lion King where they’ve success around the world and has the brand name but not something which only did a year on Broadway
|
|
1,904 posts
|
Post by sf on Nov 17, 2017 1:14:15 GMT
'American Idiot' sent an entirely American cast to play a few stops in the UK. I saw it at the Palace in Manchester.
|
|
2,557 posts
|
Post by viserys on Nov 17, 2017 6:14:37 GMT
Perhaps it's a rights issue. If someone has bought the UK rights to a show, only THEY can show that particular show in the UK.
And big companies like Disney who do things internationally, might just think that if it's too risky to put on a British production of something like Newsies, it would also be too risky to do a tour here.
I also think tbh that the American market is so huge, they just don't think about little old Europe. The US Tour of Pippin did a stint in Amsterdam two years ago and the producers were trumpeting "Broadway on the Amstel" all over and how it would become a regular thing. They followed it up by the UK Tour of Curious Incident (not even a musical) and now the UK tour of Sunset Blvd (a show done before in the Netherlands) - so despite the good start apparently they weren't able to lure more US tours across the pond.
|
|
3,057 posts
|
Post by ali973 on Nov 17, 2017 7:09:28 GMT
I think most of the issues highlighted here are correct, but one of the biggest complications is what is called "first class rights", which viserys alluded to.
When you option a play, you pretty much get its rights for each domestic market, which is why producers who own the rights for a Broadway show will also have the rights to tour it in the USA. The UK is another option, which needs to be negotiated separately.
I also think that in order to tour, you need to have a very capable team that is knowledgable of the tour circuit in each market can has the ability to set up and run the show across the country. These people aren't necessarily familiar with the ins and outs of doing it in the UK, you'll need a local time to hand hold them. This is exactly why the American producers of Hamilton team up with someone like Cameron Mackintosh: they need someone to help them put it together in the UK (despite many of the original creative members and crew from various productions in America being flown over to set it up with a local crew).
But sometimes random stops in the UK are added to a US leg.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 10:35:11 GMT
I imagine it's the costs and Equity. It does happen occasionally, Cameron Mackintosh brought the entire cast of Hair over at the Gielgud. How viable it would be for a limited engagement unless you know it's going to sell?
|
|
|
|
Post by singularsensation10 on Nov 17, 2017 12:07:56 GMT
I imagine it's the costs and Equity. It does happen occasionally, Cameron Mackintosh brought the entire cast of Hair over at the Gielgud. How viable it would be for a limited engagement unless you know it's going to sell? He did - I’m sure he did it with the intention of a UK recasting (which happened but fell through and the show closed early). Maybe this was his ‘trial run’ and if it had worked he would’ve done more?? |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 12:26:47 GMT
What would a couple of cargo crates cost for a week at sea? Then you have the cast and tour management air fares, do you pay for business class or would the cast be happy with premium economy/economy? Even so this wouldn’t be too expensive and they are one off cost, the cost of transport of set and costumes easily offsets building a new set and costumes for the UK leg. Equity wouldn’t like it, but ultimately they’re powerless to do anything to stop this, but my preferred optioned would be to work with Equity and negotiate, for example it could be possible to cast several roles to British actors for both US and UK leg, depending on cast size. If the tour is successful then you have the bonus of re-casting a British cast for a West End run and also if the tour is well received subsequent tours can go out with a British cast, you know the shows that hit the road a lot, something like Spamalot or Chicago. In a big theatre like at Southampton or Edinburgh etc you could rake in a million a week. Logistically that wouldn't be feasible, transit time for a sea freight shipment is approx. 3 weeks not including customs import and export, so it would be taking the set and equipment out of play for just short of 3 months in total |
|
4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Nov 17, 2017 13:59:36 GMT
Come on a set to be shipped from the East Coast to Southampton/Liverpool 3 months? surely that is a wild calculation?
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2017 10:59:48 GMT
What would a couple of cargo crates cost for a week at sea? Then you have the cast and tour management air fares, do you pay for business class or would the cast be happy with premium economy/economy? Even so this wouldn’t be too expensive and they are one off cost, the cost of transport of set and costumes easily offsets building a new set and costumes for the UK leg. Equity wouldn’t like it, but ultimately they’re powerless to do anything to stop this, but my preferred optioned would be to work with Equity and negotiate, for example it could be possible to cast several roles to British actors for both US and UK leg, depending on cast size. If the tour is successful then you have the bonus of re-casting a British cast for a West End run and also if the tour is well received subsequent tours can go out with a British cast, you know the shows that hit the road a lot, something like Spamalot or Chicago. In a big theatre like at Southampton or Edinburgh etc you could rake in a million a week. Logistically that wouldn't be feasible, transit time for a sea freight shipment is approx. 3 weeks not including customs import and export, so it would be taking the set and equipment out of play for just short of 3 months in total That can't be so. Using Bat Out Of Hell as an example, it closed in London at the end of August and was up and running in Toronto with the same set at the beginning of October. |
|
6,310 posts
|
Post by danb on Nov 18, 2017 11:31:15 GMT
I think that the producers of BOOH have shown great confidence in their product at every turn. Nothing has been rushed, great care has been taken to protect the cast and their health, the social media has been on point (prize winning apparently) and subsequently they have shown that playing the long game has people hungry for more.
Tours do appear to be mounted a lot more quickly in the states, but that is mostly down to deeper pockets & the size of the country. Why would you invest millions on something that people can get elsewhere by getting on a train to London for a few hours? By having a definite plan from the beginning, the team at BOOH have a media presence in North America (plus Toronto is a cultural centre full of media types.) without the risk of Broadway. Bat isn’t cool and would have been torn limb from limb by the snootier US critics, but by giving it a fan base in Manc before it’s London run it neutralised the financial risk that going straight into town would present. It has done the same in Toronto leading to those same critics asking why it isn’t on Broadway yet.
|
|
4,038 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Nov 19, 2017 10:44:01 GMT
Logistically that wouldn't be feasible, transit time for a sea freight shipment is approx. 3 weeks not including customs import and export, so it would be taking the set and equipment out of play for just short of 3 months in total That can't be so. Using Bat Out Of Hell as an example, it closed in London at the end of August and was up and running in Toronto with the same set at the beginning of October. Toronto isn't the US, it's Canada. Canada has agreements with the EU that may (I'm not an expert) lead to much quicker customs clearances.. You'd be amazed how long stuff can be held up by customs. Bottom line is, if it was easy (and lucrative) to do, people would be doing it. |
|
81 posts
|
Post by abitoftap on Nov 19, 2017 11:18:43 GMT
The Jerry Lewis Damn Yankees at the Adelphi 20 or so years ago was basically part of he US tour I think, so it can happen. Mind you, I remember reading that there was a dodgy producer involved and it didn't end happily.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2017 11:28:14 GMT
That can't be so. Using Bat Out Of Hell as an example, it closed in London at the end of August and was up and running in Toronto with the same set at the beginning of October. Toronto isn't the US, it's Canada. Canada has agreements with the EU that may (I'm not an expert) lead to much quicker customs clearances.. You'd be amazed how long stuff can be held up by customs. Bottom line is, if it was easy (and lucrative) to do, people would be doing it. do they though? if you're referring to the trade agreement (CETA) that has so far taken 7 years and is still being finalised, it isnt in place yet |
|
6,310 posts
|
Post by danb on Nov 19, 2017 12:09:41 GMT
That can't be so. Using Bat Out Of Hell as an example, it closed in London at the end of August and was up and running in Toronto with the same set at the beginning of October. Toronto isn't the US, it's Canada. Canada has agreements with the EU that may (I'm not an expert) lead to much quicker customs clearances.. You'd be amazed how long stuff can be held up by customs. Bottom line is, if it was easy (and lucrative) to do, people would be doing it. Canada is in the continent of North America. Nobody said Toronto was in America. |
|
4,038 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Nov 19, 2017 13:43:59 GMT
Toronto isn't the US, it's Canada. Canada has agreements with the EU that may (I'm not an expert) lead to much quicker customs clearances.. You'd be amazed how long stuff can be held up by customs. Bottom line is, if it was easy (and lucrative) to do, people would be doing it. do they though? if you're referring to the trade agreement (CETA) that has so far taken 7 years and is still being finalised, it isnt in place yet Came into force as of September 2017, according to Google? Anyway, the point is, something that works for Canada might not work for the USA - for all sorts of reasons. I'd also suggest that the UK isn't that big a market - I can see British productions going to Canada and the US as they're big markets, but North American productions are unlikely to find UK tours economically worth the hassle. |
|
1,904 posts
|
Post by sf on Nov 19, 2017 14:18:43 GMT
do they though? if you're referring to the trade agreement (CETA) that has so far taken 7 years and is still being finalised, it isnt in place yet Came into force as of September 2017, according to Google? Anyway, the point is, something that works for Canada might not work for the USA - for all sorts of reasons. I'd also suggest that the UK isn't that big a market - I can see British productions going to Canada and the US as they're big markets, but North American productions are unlikely to find UK tours economically worth the hassle. Compared to the UK, Canada is a very small market - a little over half our population, spread over a vast area. Toronto is something of a special case: there's a lot of theatre there and in the surrounding area (Stratford and the Shaw Festival are both an easy drive away), and theatre pulls a lot of visitors into the region from a catchment area extending a fair distance into the USA. And the theatres where tours play in Toronto operate a combined subscription scheme; they sell a lot of season packages, so they aren't dependent on walk-up sales to sustain a run. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2017 16:56:59 GMT
do they though? if you're referring to the trade agreement (CETA) that has so far taken 7 years and is still being finalised, it isnt in place yet Came into force as of September 2017, according to Google? Anyway, the point is, something that works for Canada might not work for the USA - for all sorts of reasons. I'd also suggest that the UK isn't that big a market - I can see British productions going to Canada and the US as they're big markets, but North American productions are unlikely to find UK tours economically worth the hassle. only provisonally, still needs to be voted on and approved by individual member states before it can take full affect |
|
4,038 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Nov 19, 2017 19:03:59 GMT
Came into force as of September 2017, according to Google? Anyway, the point is, something that works for Canada might not work for the USA - for all sorts of reasons. I'd also suggest that the UK isn't that big a market - I can see British productions going to Canada and the US as they're big markets, but North American productions are unlikely to find UK tours economically worth the hassle. Compared to the UK, Canada is a very small market - a little over half our population, spread over a vast area. Toronto is something of a special case: there's a lot of theatre there and in the surrounding area (Stratford and the Shaw Festival are both an easy drive away), and theatre pulls a lot of visitors into the region from a catchment area extending a fair distance into the USA. And the theatres where tours play in Toronto operate a combined subscription scheme; they sell a lot of season packages, so they aren't dependent on walk-up sales to sustain a run. Interesting - I've not been, hoping make it over one day. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2017 19:19:41 GMT
Compared to the UK, Canada is a very small market - a little over half our population, spread over a vast area. Toronto is something of a special case: there's a lot of theatre there and in the surrounding area (Stratford and the Shaw Festival are both an easy drive away), and theatre pulls a lot of visitors into the region from a catchment area extending a fair distance into the USA. And the theatres where tours play in Toronto operate a combined subscription scheme; they sell a lot of season packages, so they aren't dependent on walk-up sales to sustain a run. Interesting - I've not been, hoping make it over one day. Yeah Toronto is it's weird own beast theatrically- as sf says it pulls audiences from all over including USA in a way that other Canadian cities don't. Montreal (I lived there, but bow to more recent knowledge obviously) has a very particular theatre culture (spawn Cirque de Soliel for a start) and has the dual theatre 'scenes' with French and English. It's much more niche, experimental with the 'big' tours blowing through. Whereas Toronto has that joined up English language theatre scene, and the links to the other nearby 'theatre towns'. I don't know the West Coast as well, but I get the impression Vancouver isn't as 'theatre-y' as either Toronto or Montreal. And anything in between is varying degrees of very small cities, to ...well not a lot but Moose  |
|
6,284 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Nov 19, 2017 19:33:50 GMT
Yeah Toronto is it's weird own beast theatrically- as sf says it pulls audiences from all over including USA in a way that other Canadian cities don't. Montreal (I lived there, but bow to more recent knowledge obviously) has a very particular theatre culture (spawn Cirque de Soliel for a start) and has the dual theatre 'scenes' with French and English. It's much more niche, experimental with the 'big' tours blowing through. Whereas Toronto has that joined up English language theatre scene, and the links to the other nearby 'theatre towns'. I don't know the West Coast as well, but I get the impression Vancouver isn't as 'theatre-y' as either Toronto or Montreal. And anything in between is varying degrees of very small cities, to ...well not a lot but Moose I suppose that's similar to Belfast and Dublin, both cities seem to be the place where most tours go to in Northern Ireland and ROI, I don't think you ever see a play or musical go to say Sligo or Londonderry/Derry for example although I'm sure some do go to other Irish cities. |
|
4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Nov 19, 2017 19:37:53 GMT
Toronto used to be far busier and vibrant theatre scene, with 40% of theatregoers came over the board and would drive up to 5 hours to catch a show, then going to New York, because a Toronto show was far cheaper, also hotels and eating is cheaper - this is evident for how long The Lion King and The Phantom of the Opera run, they wouldn’t be able to do it today, the reason is because of 9/11, which forced Americans to have a passport to visit, over half of Americans don’t have one. So therefore don’t go to Toronto anymore.
I cannot understand the customs argument, as long as the paperwork is in correct order and it is verifiable, the US is a safer country and I’m sure customs wouldn’t want to unduly hinder business, if the paperwork said The Lion King tour from Columbia then I would be very concerned, so should our customs. If customs were that heavy handed then supermarkets wouldn’t be able to sell the stuff they do, as it wouldn’t be edible anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 19, 2017 19:49:55 GMT
On a side note, it would be great to see greater co-operation with regards to broadcasts of big shows. We already get the Met Opera over here - so that proves it can be done. There have been some great shows broadcast from Broadway that have not been extended to other markets - and that is a shame.
|
|
6,284 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Nov 19, 2017 19:52:17 GMT
On a side note, it would be great to see greater co-operation with regards to broadcasts of big shows. We already get the Met Opera over here - so that proves it can be done. There have been some great shows broadcast from Broadway that have not been extended to other markets - and that is a shame. I suspect the reason for no live broadcast of Broadway shows is that producers probably see its as eating into potential revenue when it transfers to another country. |
|
