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Post by Tibidabo on Mar 7, 2017 9:53:39 GMT
You used a term that is a disability to refer to a theatre piece being 'crap' you used the term relating to a condition that affects people and their lives as a equation for 'crap' how is that not insulting? No I did not. I used a play on words, shifting around the letters that make up the word 'crap.' Nothing more. It was not meant as anything more. My final words on the subject.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 9:58:19 GMT
Thanks for the grammar lesson I'm sure we all feel enlightened now. That's exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about- I'm sure most of us are generally (probably unconsciously by now) aware of the rules, but in a forum/social media environment people do slip into more colloquial speech, as they do in life. It just reeks of a superior attitude to be nit picking in this way. That wasn't my point, and I'm sure you know that. I was pointing out that there really is absolutely no excuse for not knowing things like this because they are so very, very simple, and it's utterly preposterous to act as though knowing the most basic features of your own language requires an elite education. Mistakes like that are not colloquial speech. They're not a result of lacking a higher level of education. These are not the sort of things that require great effort. These are the sort of things that should come naturally to every native speaker of English with no effort whatsoever. I'm amazed that anyone would call it "elitist" to expect native speakers of English to know the sort of elements that a new learner of the language would cover in the first couple of months. Interestingly, it seems to be mainly native speakers who make these mistakes, which kind of stomps all over the idea that it's expecting too much of people to get it right. I guess then what irks me is the idea that it's somehow such a crime to make a mistake. Especially in an informal environment. As I think Ryan said above, I cringe a bit occasionally but I don't spend time dwelling on it nor would I dream of making a point of it either publically or privately. Of course in an education or professional environment it would be worth bringing up, I just don't think this is the kind of environment where it's necessary.
I almost made a spelling error with necessary there, and spent time debating whether I should write 'spelled' 'spelt' or actually none of the above for fear of rebuke. That's not the way I or I suspect many others want to be writing on here-always second guessing and wondering if we're going to be told off or mocked.
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Post by viserys on Mar 7, 2017 10:03:52 GMT
Interestingly, it seems to be mainly native speakers who make these mistakes, which kind of stomps all over the idea that it's expecting too much of people to get it right. I'm not a native speaker and I'm having a hell of a time with English apostrophes, since German doesn't do them. Funny thing: More and more young Germans who have learnt somewhat decent English start throwing (English) apostrophes into German sentences where they have absolutely no business to be. Though German was messed up by a "reform" in the 90s which was later partly rescinded, so people have no clue these days what's right and what's not. Another funny thing: German adapts English words but not the plural form. So we have a Baby in German but instead of Babies we have Babys. I often find I accidentally use the "Germanic plural" in English too, when I write about Babys or Partys or something. And don't get me started on Handys
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 10:06:43 GMT
Let's be fair, guys: English is a devil language and, of those of us who are native speakers, if we *weren't* then at least half of us wouldn't stand a chance.
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 10:08:24 GMT
The "should have should of" really doesn't bother me. I'm from south east London everyone says should of. They might not write it like that but they say it. On the subject of grammer itself, I find it difficult, I find it difficult to read and how to structure sentances. For me those little things just don't bother me. The same goes with "gotten" I have written that many times. We say it like that in SE London. But once you're told about it, it really isn't that difficult to grasp, is it? But there are some people who can't, who find language difficult to understand and then change - like myself. Which is why those little things really don't bother me. A friend of mine who writes injoy rather than enjoy because she says injoy. I say and write gotten. Big deal. I'm 33 years old I have got more important things to worry about in my future than battling correct usage of words and grammer. Actually this is the problem with English language it's far too complex. I struggle a great deal with pronouncing words as well. There are words to look at I know what they mean but can't say them. It's very frustrating. I have a slightly unusal accent because of how I have learnt how to say certain words. I have known people from all over the country & world who I have asked to repeat words over and over again so I remember them then picked up their accent. Even now I see a word sometimes, then ask someone how to pronounce it - it in no way sounded anything like what I tried to pronounce in my head. Then I have the other side where I know how to pronounce it but not how to spell it. It's trouble when trying to learn words in other languages. I go to see Les Miz (a lot) I have to ask the actors at stage door how to pronounce their characters. It took me ages to correctly pronounce Montparnasse they say it in the show. But I still can't say Claquesous I can spell it but I can't say it though. I often get told I write how I speak. It has taken me 50 or so minutes to actually write this. That is how difficult it to even write some times.
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Post by bellboard27 on Mar 7, 2017 10:12:23 GMT
I am like Ryan (blimey I never thought I would say that!). Things may make me cringe, but as long as they are not so bad that one cannot understand what is being said, that is fine for an informal chatty forum. I am currently editing a book, so I do appreciate correct English usage in its place (in fact none of the authors are native English speakers, so that also throws up some interesting vocabulary and sentence structures!).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 10:13:09 GMT
You used a term that is a disability to refer to a theatre piece being 'crap' you used the term relating to a condition that affects people and their lives as a equation for 'crap' how is that not insulting? No I did not. I used a play on words, shifting around the letters that make up the word 'crap.' Nothing more. It was not meant as anything more. My final words on the subject. I don't understand how a person can't see that a 'joke' or whatever you want to call it about rearranging letters, and calling something crap/dyslexic. As I said above/at the time I don't understand how dyslexia is 'fair game' when we wouldn't tolerate comments on other disabilities.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 10:17:05 GMT
I think that's the key point, isn't it? Some people find language very easy to wrangle, so "should of" vs "should have" is a no-brainer and really isn't that difficult to grasp. FOR THEM. What those with such linguistic privilege should bear in mind is that everyone's brains are wired differently, and for some people it *is* that difficult to grasp actually. You wouldn't march across the moors then chastise a wheelchair user for being unable to keep up, why then is it acceptable to proclaim that language *is* easy when clearly for some people it really *isn't*?
I know I'm far from innocent and I've definitely corrected some mis-spellings and dodgy grammar here in the past, because I am coming from that place of privilege and embarrassingly just forget. I still think it's polite to make the effort to get someone's name right, but if you ever see me correcting anything else in future, please do remind me that I am being a dick and need to stop.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Mar 7, 2017 10:17:10 GMT
As someone with dyslexia, it really harks of being back in the playground and being pointed at and mocked for making mistakes. There are some mistakes that are down to things like dyslexia and some that are down to not having English as a first language, but the sort of mistakes that have legitimate causes tend to follow patterns. Russians sometimes omit articles where English requires them, for example, and some languages that are heavy in gender inflection result in people using "he" and "she" where a native English speaker would use "it". The mistakes being criticised here aren't those sorts of mistakes. It's obviously poor form to pick on people who are struggling with learning a new language or who have dyslexia, but we shouldn't go too far the other way and adopt an attitude of "being wrong is just as good as being right". The sort of mistakes we're talking about aren't the sort of mistakes that require higher education. This is basic stuff: the language equivalent of knowing how to add 5 to 7. For example, no native speaker of English should struggle with apostrophes and the letter S because the rules to cover the overwhelming majority of cases can be learnt by anyone in a minute: Possessives: Add 's for singulars and for plurals not already ending in -s. Plurals ending in -s add ' after the s. cat => cat's, woman => woman's, cats => cats', women => women's Possessive exceptions: Hers, its, theirs and so on: you wouldn't write hi's so don't use an apostrophe in the others.
Contractions: something + is => -'s. This includes it is => it's.
Plurals: Don't use an apostrophe. Extremely rare exception: Phrases like "dotting the i's and crossing the t's", where the apostrophe serves as a break to avoid creating the word "is".That shouldn't be a challenge for anywhere near as many people who appear to find it a challenge. I have two BA's and I received tuition constantly throughout them and yet some rules have just gone in. It's not as simple as you assume
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Post by Honoured Guest on Mar 7, 2017 10:24:51 GMT
Never mind the grammar.
Some posters are just IRRITATING
Full Stop
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 10:28:51 GMT
You know what? There are things I see written that annoy me, and there are things that don't. That's not necessarily to do with their grammatical or linguistic correctness, or my perception of the writer's ability, it's just to do with me. It's entirely irrational.
I have to deal with this a lot as part of my job. I have authors and editors who insist on things being written a certain way just because they find it annoying written another way - not because it's *wrong*, just because that's how they're used to seeing it written. People are funny about these things - I have a colleague who is currently waging a battle over the use of the salutation 'Greetings' in one of our communications. She just can't stand it; it doesn't bother me at all. Our Indian colleagues think it's rude *not* to have it.
In these cases, we tend to gauge the level of irritation something causes to the audience when deciding what to change, and how important that person is in the scheme of things.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 10:48:36 GMT
You used a term that is a disability to refer to a theatre piece being 'crap' you used the term relating to a condition that affects people and their lives as a equation for 'crap' how is that not insulting? No I did not. I used a play on words, shifting around the letters that make up the word 'crap.' Nothing more. It was not meant as anything more. My final words on the subject. I understood that the term "dyslexic carp" was a way to say the word "crap" (as in poop), by saying "carp" (as in fish) and using an adjective to make it clear that you did not mean "carp" (as in fish) but "crap" (as in poop). I, however, do not have dyslexia so 1) am better placed to perceive the subtle difference between "carp" (as in fish) and "crap" (as in poop) and 2) really have no place to say whether or not the wordplay is at all offensive to people who do have dyslexia. I see those were your final words, so I expect absolutely no response, I just hope to have shed a little light on why the wordplay might not have gone down well with some.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 10:51:56 GMT
I understood that the term "dyslexic carp" was a way to say the word "crap" (as in poop), by saying "carp" (as in fish) and using an adjective to make it clear that you did not mean "carp" (as in fish) but "crap" (as in poop). I, however, do not have dyslexia so 1) am better placed to perceive the subtle difference between "carp" (as in fish) and "crap" (as in poop) and 2) really have no place to say whether or not the wordplay is at all offensive to people who do have dyslexia. I see those were your final words, so I expect absolutely no response, I just hope to have shed a little light on why the wordplay might not have gone down well with some. See it has taken what @baemax there said to (hand on heart here) realise you were saying 'carp' NOT 'crap' I genuinely couldn't see it as such. And such is the (case in point) nature of my disability.
And I personally still see it as a mocking that is unnecessary, particularly as it's illustrated for someone WITH dyslexia it's so easily misunderstood.
ETA for clarity my point was that I always thought you were saying 'dyslexic crap' and therefore equating 'dyslexia' as a way of saying something was rubbish, because I misread it, because of my dyslexia. Jesus this is exhausting.
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Post by The Matthew on Mar 7, 2017 10:58:32 GMT
]I guess then what irks me is the idea that it's somehow such a crime to make a mistake. Especially in an informal environment. As I think Ryan said above, I cringe a bit occasionally but I don't spend time dwelling on it nor would I dream of making a point of it either publically or privately. Of course in an education or professional environment it would be worth bringing up, I just don't think this is the kind of environment where it's necessary. We may have been talking about different things. I wasn't just referring to the forum, but more to the general idea that it's OK to get things wrong as if "wrong" is some sort of "alternative right". If someone makes a typo in an online post, or goes back and rewrites part of a sentence and fails to adjust every part of it to match, then that's not an issue for me: I like people to make a bit of an attempt to consider the reader but not to the extent that they spend twice as long proofreading as they did typing. But sometimes it's clear that people simply don't know the fundamentals of their own language. I've seen press releases where someone has used the wrong one out of "there", "they're" and "their". That's not a typo. It's because they simply haven't the foggiest notion of which to use. That shouldn't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:01:11 GMT
]I guess then what irks me is the idea that it's somehow such a crime to make a mistake. Especially in an informal environment. As I think Ryan said above, I cringe a bit occasionally but I don't spend time dwelling on it nor would I dream of making a point of it either publically or privately. Of course in an education or professional environment it would be worth bringing up, I just don't think this is the kind of environment where it's necessary. We may have been talking about different things. I wasn't just referring to the forum, but more to the general idea that it's OK to get things wrong as if "wrong" is some sort of "alternative right". If someone makes a typo in an online post, or goes back and rewrites part of a sentence and fails to adjust every part of it to match, then that's not an issue for me: I like people to make a bit of an attempt to consider the reader but not to the extent that they spend twice as long proofreading as they did typing. But sometimes it's clear that people simply don't know the fundamentals of their own language. I've seen press releases where someone has used the wrong one out of "there", "they're" and "their". That's not a typo. It's because they simply haven't the foggiest notion of which to use. That shouldn't happen. That's completely fair and clearly we were talking at different things. 100% agree that there's no excuse for anything beyond a typo (and even then...) in professional documents. And although editors have leeway as we all do for personal preference in some areas, that yes the 'correct' language in published/professional work should be right! (hell I've marked enough student essays in my times with a general 'WTF is this' comment on them!!)
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Post by poster J on Mar 7, 2017 11:21:55 GMT
Thank goodness someone has raised the 'could of' thing... This has bugged me for ages but I thought if I brought it up it would go down like a lead balloon. Champagne for ggersten! I did bring it up in a thread once and was thoroughly told off for doing so! It's just basic grammatical rules, so I don't think it's being too pedantic to point it out if it's something that's been happening repeatedly and the phrase was being specifically used to make a point (I hate the use of the word Nazi so won't use that phrase). What irks me equally is those who don't know when to use your/you're, and people who put apostrophes in the wrong place (or fail to use them entirely!). I apologise if that makes me seem harsh, but it honestly does spoil my enjoyment of the forum a bit to read posts with basic incorrect grammar that aren't obviously typos or written by those for whom English is not their first language. I don't think it's asking a lot, just for people to be aware of a couple of very common grammatical mistakes that do make a difference. And I say that as someone whose best friend is dyslexic, so I'm aware of the difficulties that can cause, but she always tries to use the correct phrasing and more often than not is successful. I understand that it might spoil some people's enjoyment of the forum to have to think a bit more about grammar, but it's not a one-way street - just as there will be people who find it difficult, there will also be people who find having to read repeated basic grammar errors difficult, so I think a balance needs to be found.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:23:47 GMT
I am diagnosed with dyslexia. I try to 'do good' on here but I save the sweat for the office. To me this forum is fun and interesting I agree, this forum is supposed to be fun, interesting and relaxed. Not managed on every, single post and to make people feel like crap for making a grammatical error or two. It comes across more elitest (even though that may not be the intention) and it can make some people on here feel bad when they shouldn't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:26:05 GMT
]I guess then what irks me is the idea that it's somehow such a crime to make a mistake. Especially in an informal environment. As I think Ryan said above, I cringe a bit occasionally but I don't spend time dwelling on it nor would I dream of making a point of it either publically or privately. Of course in an education or professional environment it would be worth bringing up, I just don't think this is the kind of environment where it's necessary. We may have been talking about different things. I wasn't just referring to the forum, but more to the general idea that it's OK to get things wrong as if "wrong" is some sort of "alternative right". If someone makes a typo in an online post, or goes back and rewrites part of a sentence and fails to adjust every part of it to match, then that's not an issue for me: I like people to make a bit of an attempt to consider the reader but not to the extent that they spend twice as long proofreading as they did typing. But sometimes it's clear that people simply don't know the fundamentals of their own language. I've seen press releases where someone has used the wrong one out of "there", "they're" and "their". That's not a typo. It's because they simply haven't the foggiest notion of which to use. That shouldn't happen. This post makes me so fustrated, you are not taking into consideration other peoples reasons for struggling with language. The way that reads is pretty much "people are uneducated".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:27:14 GMT
I think that's the key point, isn't it? Some people find language very easy to wrangle, so "should of" vs "should have" is a no-brainer and really isn't that difficult to grasp. FOR THEM. What those with such linguistic privilege should bear in mind is that everyone's brains are wired differently, and for some people it *is* that difficult to grasp actually. You wouldn't march across the moors then chastise a wheelchair user for being unable to keep up, why then is it acceptable to proclaim that language *is* easy when clearly for some people it really *isn't*? I know I'm far from innocent and I've definitely corrected some mis-spellings and dodgy grammar here in the past, because I am coming from that place of privilege and embarrassingly just forget. I still think it's polite to make the effort to get someone's name right, but if you ever see me correcting anything else in future, please do remind me that I am being a dick and need to stop. I can't think of a single example where 'should of' can be used. The same goes for 'would of' and 'could of'. (Happy to be corrected.) So your suggestion that some of us are liguistcally privileged to grasp this is just ridiculous. (And I don't care how many 'likes' you get to the contrary...!) It's simple; the next time you go to type/write 'should of'... DON'T!
We all have to learn, and I completely understand that we all learn differently and at different rates. But you wouldn't keep buying a ticket for the balcony and then try time after time to sit in the stalls, telling the usher that it's difficult for you to grasp, would you? The usher might (quite rightly) call you a dick. Unfair of you to claim that anyone who shows consideration for our language and how it's used is one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:31:22 GMT
DEFINITELY. This is the only spelling of the word. Not 'definately', 'defanately', 'defiantly' or anything else for that matter.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 11:32:20 GMT
]I guess then what irks me is the idea that it's somehow such a crime to make a mistake. Especially in an informal environment. As I think Ryan said above, I cringe a bit occasionally but I don't spend time dwelling on it nor would I dream of making a point of it either publically or privately. Of course in an education or professional environment it would be worth bringing up, I just don't think this is the kind of environment where it's necessary. We may have been talking about different things. I wasn't just referring to the forum, but more to the general idea that it's OK to get things wrong as if "wrong" is some sort of "alternative right". If someone makes a typo in an online post, or goes back and rewrites part of a sentence and fails to adjust every part of it to match, then that's not an issue for me: I like people to make a bit of an attempt to consider the reader but not to the extent that they spend twice as long proofreading as they did typing. But sometimes it's clear that people simply don't know the fundamentals of their own language. I've seen press releases where someone has used the wrong one out of "there", "they're" and "their". That's not a typo. It's because they simply haven't the foggiest notion of which to use. That shouldn't happen. Yes, this is true. But English is a funny language, and there are many things that people *think* are rules that are more like guidelines. Some are completely arbitrary inventions of 16th century grammarians who were trying to standardise English based on Latin. (And heh, 'standardise' has been underlined by the American browser spell checker as wrong.....)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:32:56 GMT
I fear my point has been missed here - it's not that showing consideration for how our language is used makes you unpleasant to be around, it's that if I choose to make other people feel bad about it even if it's something they find difficult, then I would (absolutely rightly) be the bad guy. I don't know if you've read the rest of the thread, but there are people here who don't have your natural command of how words and phrases and punctuation "should" be, and I didn't realise until today just how terrible they feel when other people insist on drawing attention to it. As long as we understand what each other means, I'd rather have the most grammatically nightmarish conversation in the world than make someone feel uncomfortable even being here. If we were only talking about language, that would be one thing, but we are talking about real people feeling like crap (as in poop) here, and THAT is what I am not comfortable with. Good for you if you don't care, but I do, and hopefully I'm not the only one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:36:57 GMT
Is it me or is the 'respect for our language' starting to sound a bit 'make Britain great again' or 'won't somebody PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN'
Seriously though, I personally don't understand why the odd error is such an affront to your sensibilities. Or why making mistakes makes people a terrible individual in the eyes of some here. It's a sad state of affairs to know that we're all being judged by our grammar and spelling by some.
And as Kathryn says (and any good editor/English teacher/sensible person) will tell you English is an unwieldy language and many so called 'rules' are in fact false. But please don't let that get in the way of feeling slightly superior to someone for a moment.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 11:38:03 GMT
DEFINITELY. This is the only spelling of the word. Not 'definately', 'defanately', 'defiantly' or anything else for that matter. Defiantly means something else entirely! And this is why spelling and grammar are important - to make your meaning clear. Otherwise people misunderstand you. They may even get offended by something you didn't actually mean to say - and if you don't know why they've misunderstood you it's very hard indeed to clear up the misunderstanding, because you'll be knee-deep in an argument about it before you know it. Anything else - missing apostrophes, 'could of', 'casted' (that one is my bugbear!) may be annoying to some but is ultimately not important.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:38:56 GMT
Suffice to say, reading a couple of these comments over the pages, it makes me not want to attend any future meet ups. If you don't like the way I type, god help me when you meet me and I talk and make a mistake!
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Post by Honoured Guest on Mar 7, 2017 11:39:50 GMT
This post makes me so fustrated, you are not taking into consideration other peoples reasons for struggling with language. The way that reads is pretty much "people are uneducated". Yes, a person who doesn't know the meaning of the word "of" is uneducated in that respect.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:40:25 GMT
I quite like it when people say "defiantly" instead of "definitely". It may not be what they mean, but it takes their conviction level from the flat 100% of "definitely" to an excellent 150% of "not only is it the case, but I will say so even if people disagree". In some cases it ends up being far more appropriate than "definitely" ever could have been.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:45:11 GMT
This post makes me so fustrated, you are not taking into consideration other peoples reasons for struggling with language. The way that reads is pretty much "people are uneducated". Yes, a person who doesn't know the meaning of the word "of" is uneducated in that respect. Yeah, you've really misunderstood some of the points here. Someone who types "should of" doesn't automatically not know what "of" means and it's pretty condescending to imply that. Dyslexia, to take one example of a learning difficulty, isn't just someone not trying hard or wallowing in wilful ignorance, it is someone whose brain literally will not make that connection. You can be educated out the wazoo and still have dyslexia, I know for a FACT we have at least one person here who fits that description. It doesn't mean you're uneducated. It doesn't mean you're unwilling to learn. It doesn't mean you're stupid. God it must be EXHAUSTING having dyslexia, with people wilfully misunderstanding how it affects your life and telling you that you would be alright if you just tried a little harder.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 11:45:21 GMT
I quite like it when people say "defiantly" instead of "definitely". It may not be what they mean, but it takes their conviction level from the flat 100% of "definitely" to an excellent 150% of "not only is it the case, but I will say so even if people disagree". In some cases it ends up being far more appropriate than "definitely" ever could have been. Ah, but that may not be the case at all, Baemax. They may think something is definitely true, but upon being presented with evidence to the contrary, change their mind. Whereas if they defiantly think it's true, they wouldn't change their mind. So it's important for the writer to know that defiantly implies something quite different to definitely to the reader.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:48:25 GMT
I did wonder how long it would take you to chime in, Baemax, as you are never far away from a spat, usually telling most of us we are all wrong, and you are all right. Fear not that I have missed your point; I understand you perfectly. You incorrectly assume that I have a natural command of language; I will refrain from boring you with my life story, but suffice it to say you are wrong. (Not something you like to be...) Like many others, I have tried to understand errors I have made (in language and in all areas of my life) and tried to correct them. It's never too late. You never know, some posters might have learnt a thing or two about English grammar this morning. And they might have done so quietly, gratefully even, in the background, without making a big fuss, claiming they've been picked on, laughed at and made to feel like crap. You and the likes might have done that for them.
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