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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 17, 2023 6:29:16 GMT
The point is not to create a system solely designed to wipe out any one party. That is denying democracy. Changes in governing party always happen. The desire for a new approach eventually brings about a natural result. And we have a peaceful transition of power based on those 'change' elections. Seeking to then embed that result by changing the electoral system to try to lock any party out of office is quite simply wrong. We had a referendum on changing the voting system as part of the 2010 Coalition agreement. That vote was lost. Just as it is right to rule out another Scottish referendum for a generation, the same applies to voting system changes to my mind. (And a once in a generation vote is what the SNP campaigned at the time of that referendum, so am only holding to their view at that time) Conservative Party done their very best to wipe themselves out by being so nasty |
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Post by Jan on May 17, 2023 7:29:10 GMT
After this nasty Tory government I am sure we are all in agreement anything that means we will never have another Tory administration is a good thing. I’m on the PR bus You make the mistake, as do the LibDems, of assuming the national vote share in a FPTP election would be the same in a PR election. It wouldn't - under PR concepts such as protest votes and tactical votes cease to exist. This could mean the LibDems do much worse. Also Conservatives who don't bother to vote in London seats with massive Labour majorities (and vice versa) would be likely to vote. Longer term, under FPTP each main party is really a coalition in itself - the Conservatives between Social Democrats/Conservatives/Libertarians and Labour between Social Democrats/Left Wing. Under PR there is no need for those groups to be part of the same party and argue their case internally, they can set up as separate parties, be guaranteed seats, and use their leverage in the formal coalition arguments that would result. It seems obvious that a new left party under Corbyn and a new right under Farage would both do well and take MPs from the centrist mainstream parties. There could also be new parties representing other narrow interests, for example based on religion. The overall result would be to import more extremists into the Commons and give them disproportionate leverage over policy. In the last national election conducted under PR (the 2019 European Parliament election) an entirely new party, Brexit under Farage, was by far the biggest party on 30.5% of the vote. Labour got 13.6%, Conservatives 8.8%. That pattern could easily be repeated in a future PR election in which a single subject was to the fore - immigration for example. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 17, 2023 8:05:50 GMT
After this nasty Tory government I am sure we are all in agreement anything that means we will never have another Tory administration is a good thing. I’m on the PR bus You make the mistake, as do the LibDems, of assuming the national vote share in a FPTP election would be the same in a PR election. It wouldn't - under PR concepts such as protest votes and tactical votes cease to exist. This could mean the LibDems do much worse. Also Conservatives who don't bother to vote in London seats with massive Labour majorities (and vice versa) would be likely to vote. Longer term, under FPTP each main party is really a coalition in itself - the Conservatives between Social Democrats/Conservatives/Libertarians and Labour between Social Democrats/Left Wing. Under PR there is no need for those groups to be part of the same party and argue their case internally, they can set up as separate parties, be guaranteed seats, and use their leverage in the formal coalition arguments that would result. It seems obvious that a new left party under Corbyn and a new right under Farage would both do well and take MPs from the centrist mainstream parties. There could also be new parties representing other narrow interests, for example based on religion. The overall result would be to import more extremists into the Commons and give them disproportionate leverage over policy. In the last national election conducted under PR (the 2019 European Parliament election) an entirely new party, Brexit under Farage, was by far the biggest party on 30.5% of the vote. Labour got 13.6%, Conservatives 8.8%. That pattern could easily be repeated in a future PR election in which a single subject was to the fore - immigration for example. I agree with all of that but not made the mistake and how a new democracy would see changes in voting. I'm a prime candidate myself. Never lived anywhere that the Tory candidate hasn't got a majority of >18k (apart from the Blair boom 1997 when it was 8k) so my vote would 'count' for the first time. At this moment I don't want to vote for any of the major parties so in a change of voting system I may actually put an x in the box. |
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Post by Jan on May 17, 2023 12:21:43 GMT
You make the mistake, as do the LibDems, of assuming the national vote share in a FPTP election would be the same in a PR election. It wouldn't - under PR concepts such as protest votes and tactical votes cease to exist. This could mean the LibDems do much worse. Also Conservatives who don't bother to vote in London seats with massive Labour majorities (and vice versa) would be likely to vote. Longer term, under FPTP each main party is really a coalition in itself - the Conservatives between Social Democrats/Conservatives/Libertarians and Labour between Social Democrats/Left Wing. Under PR there is no need for those groups to be part of the same party and argue their case internally, they can set up as separate parties, be guaranteed seats, and use their leverage in the formal coalition arguments that would result. It seems obvious that a new left party under Corbyn and a new right under Farage would both do well and take MPs from the centrist mainstream parties. There could also be new parties representing other narrow interests, for example based on religion. The overall result would be to import more extremists into the Commons and give them disproportionate leverage over policy. In the last national election conducted under PR (the 2019 European Parliament election) an entirely new party, Brexit under Farage, was by far the biggest party on 30.5% of the vote. Labour got 13.6%, Conservatives 8.8%. That pattern could easily be repeated in a future PR election in which a single subject was to the fore - immigration for example. I agree with all of that but not made the mistake and how a new democracy would see changes in voting. I'm a prime candidate myself. Never lived anywhere that the Tory candidate hasn't got a majority of >18k (apart from the Blair boom 1997 when it was 8k) so my vote would 'count' for the first time. At this moment I don't want to vote for any of the major parties so in a change of voting system I may actually put an x in the box. To restate the risk. You could easily envisage a situation where both a new Corbyn-led party and a new Farage-led party each get 10% of the popular vote. You then have 65 MPs who have been personally chosen by Corbyn and 65 personally chosen by Farage (via a list system) and no way at all for any voters (supporters or otherwise) to influence or change that choice of individual. It would be a far more polarised parliament with essentially negative government coalitions being formed simply to exclude those extremist parties (as happens somewhat in Germany with the AfD). |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 17, 2023 13:44:10 GMT
I agree with all of that but not made the mistake and how a new democracy would see changes in voting. I'm a prime candidate myself. Never lived anywhere that the Tory candidate hasn't got a majority of >18k (apart from the Blair boom 1997 when it was 8k) so my vote would 'count' for the first time. At this moment I don't want to vote for any of the major parties so in a change of voting system I may actually put an x in the box. To restate the risk. You could easily envisage a situation where both a new Corbyn-led party and a new Farage-led party each get 10% of the popular vote. You then have 65 MPs who have been personally chosen by Corbyn and 65 personally chosen by Farage (via a list system) and no way at all for any voters (supporters or otherwise) to influence or change that choice of individual. It would be a far more polarised parliament with essentially negative government coalitions being formed simply to exclude those extremist parties (as happens somewhat in Germany with the AfD). Not too sure why you are including a Corbyn lead group and not some nasty Tories after the damage they have done to the country. But still, do you have any sway with ten per cent of MP's? |
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 31, 2023 13:06:20 GMT
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 31, 2023 16:25:14 GMT
We was having this conversation today also. I was arguing that people are capable of thinking about two things at one time and know how bad this nasty government have been despite the behaviour of Schofield being in the news |
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Post by theatrefan62 on Jun 1, 2023 20:57:20 GMT
Are you really minimalising what Schofield has done? I'm shocked enough at seeing how normalised grooming has become with Schofield apologists on social media but I never thought I'd see it on here. This is one time GBNews and the mail are in the right as so many other outlets seem to be avoiding it, despite the mountain of evidence and even though its been an open secret in the industry and on social media for years. As mentioned above people are capable of thinking about more than one thing. One problem doesn't cancel out the other. After Saville I didn't think a network would cover up such behaviour again, yet here we are. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 2, 2023 7:33:35 GMT
I hope i am not mimamising the Schofield case. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the enquiry and if any arrests are made.
I like the Coldwarsteve image, its satirical elements - who decides and why which story gets the front page.
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Post by karloscar on Jun 2, 2023 10:32:28 GMT
There's no doubt that we're being manipulated and the Schofield saga is being used to distract us from our shambolic government's behaviour. BBC news have shown the entire 45minute interview ( the moody lighting and ominous dark shadows across Phil's face would make Barbara Stanwyck or Joan Crawford proud, so more manipulation there), and then spent the rest of the hour discussing it with their media correspondent. Why not have some proper news like Will and Kate's trip to the royal wedding in Jordan?
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Post by sukhavati on Jun 4, 2023 3:19:56 GMT
There's no doubt that we're being manipulated and the Schofield saga is being used to distract us from our shambolic government's behaviour. BBC news have shown the entire 45minute interview ( the moody lighting and ominous dark shadows across Phil's face would make Barbara Stanwyck or Joan Crawford proud, so more manipulation there), and then spent the rest of the hour discussing it with their media correspondent. Why not have some proper news like Will and Kate's trip to the royal wedding in Jordan? I agree with you until the last question. It seems to me that the papers making the biggest fuss about Schofield are Tory leaning. The more they focus on trivial matters like Schofield, royals, and other minor celebrities, the less the public pays attention to yet another instance of Johnson acting inappropriately, let alone the fact that the government seems to be run by people using a platform famous for the fact that messages were originally supposed to disappear after a limited amount of time. Why are government communications even legally allowed to take place on non-government platforms? |
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Post by karloscar on Jun 9, 2023 21:13:03 GMT
Hahaha, hahaha, hahahaha! Infamy infamy, they all had it infamy! The delusional bollocks that Johnson's coming out with is hilarious. Of course everyone else is to blame for his downfall.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 9, 2023 21:26:57 GMT
Imagine if you voted for him?
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Post by marob on Jun 9, 2023 21:45:52 GMT
I would say good riddance to him and Dorries but I’m sure this just means they’ll both become full-time media-whores now. We’ll probably end up seeing more of them. Expect a multi-volume memoir/apologia from him.
Also… Dame Patel and Sirs Rees-Mogg and Fabricant… 🤮
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Post by Jon on Jun 9, 2023 22:00:45 GMT
I would say good riddance to him and Dorries but I’m sure this just means they’ll both become full-time media-whores now. We’ll probably end up seeing more of them. Expect a multi-volume memoir/apologia from him. Also… Dame Patel and Sirs Rees-Mogg and Fabricant… 🤮 I wonder if TalkTV or GB News are going to sign him up? |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 9, 2023 22:51:15 GMT
I would say good riddance to him and Dorries but I’m sure this just means they’ll both become full-time media-whores now. We’ll probably end up seeing more of them. Expect a multi-volume memoir/apologia from him. Also… Dame Patel and Sirs Rees-Mogg and Fabricant… 🤮 I wonder if TalkTV or GB News are going to sign him up? Still, something funny about Trump and Johnson getting legged on the same day |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Jun 10, 2023 8:02:21 GMT
‘he's a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise-breaker, the owner of no one good quality worthy your lordship's entertainment…’
All's Well That Ends Well, Act III, Scene VI
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 10, 2023 11:18:33 GMT
Unable to function within conventional boundaries at the best of times, he had one huge job to do and he did that - albeit eventually.
For nearly everything else he should end up in the cell next to Trump. Simon Stone are you out there?
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Post by vdcni on Jun 10, 2023 17:06:32 GMT
A coward to the end, he knows he'd lose any recall election so he gets out now rather than get chucked out.
Then puts out a statement full of lies and conspiracies when the truth is so obvious. Very Trumpian. Now trying to damage his successors, the ones that had to try and clear up after his inadequate Brexit settlement.
Hopefully that's the end of him given the way he has sacrificed the good of the country to his own personal ambition and corrupted the entire political system.
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Post by jl16688 on Jun 10, 2023 20:10:47 GMT
I wonder how will YouGov ratings on the Gov/Sunak change after Johnson's resignation - will be fun to see the latter's reaction if it actually goes up due to him leaving (!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 21:31:52 GMT
To restate the risk. You could easily envisage a situation where both a new Corbyn-led party and a new Farage-led party each get 10% of the popular vote. You then have 65 MPs who have been personally chosen by Corbyn and 65 personally chosen by Farage (via a list system) and no way at all for any voters (supporters or otherwise) to influence or change that choice of individual. It would be a far more polarised parliament with essentially negative government coalitions being formed simply to exclude those extremist parties (as happens somewhat in Germany with the AfD). Not too sure why you are including a Corbyn lead group and not some nasty Tories after the damage they have done to the country. But still, do you have any sway with ten per cent of MP's? This is almost the establishment view that you cannot have people elected away from the centre ground whatever people may think of those on the more left or right of the political spectrum. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 15, 2023 7:16:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2023 19:46:16 GMT
Rashford has a job though !
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Post by Someone in a tree on Dec 24, 2023 9:03:39 GMT
Not the best Autumn for Rishi and just when you thought it couldn't get worse James cleverly delivers an alternative Christmas message.
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Post by thebroadwayboy on Feb 21, 2024 9:30:55 GMT
Sad After seeing this
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Post by thebroadwayboy on Feb 28, 2024 11:44:47 GMT
he should know the nhs needs funding right |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 28, 2024 12:17:47 GMT
he should know the nhs needs funding right Yes |
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